To think that Conservatives don't actually care about 'red wall' voters beyond getting their vote

[Tuesdaysintheazores]

But people who live there and are going to be voting Conservative obviously do feel that they are the best people to represent them. Very interested to hear from people who live in red wall areas. AIBU?

YABU = Conservatives actually do care about these people now

YANBU = Conservatives just trying to get the votes and seats

Tuesday As I said previously I am an interloper, so I feel sometimes I am looking on the outside in. I don't have the personal history of the area in terms of mining and other industries, so it is strange to see how it has turned. Labour lost the election rather than the Tories winning it, this is how forgotten about the area feels that they are prepared to vote against Labour.

My eyes are on Leigh in Lancashire. 100 years of labour turned blue.
Lisa Nandy is a pretty cert in Wigan.

The Hartlepool Labour candidate imo is a good guy on the whole, but I do think he is probably better off in his day job as a GP.

I read an interesting analysis of why Trump and Republican / individualist / small state politicians have such heavy support from demographics that would do much better under Democrat / ever-so-slightly socialist policies. The gist was, they don't see themselves as people at the bottom who need help and support, they see themselves as people who ok, might be at the bottom right now, but only because they've been unfairly shafted by a social change imposed by big state politicians (usually immigration, might be climate change policy). So they'll vote for the person who claims they can undo that change and put them back up a few rungs rather than the person who is trying to give them what would help in their new reality.

He is a good guy. He was a pretty good mp for Stockton South.

But Paul Williams is the same doctor who, months ago, went running to the media with a story about how some of his patients were asking for the "British vaccine" with the implied finger wagging that they were being xenophobic rather than the more likely explanation that they had misgivings about the new mRNA technology. But here we are again - with labour scanning for ways to offend their voters.

Just speaking to my Dad about it at the minute. He's ex labour member, former miner, would never vote Tory. He says among his friends that they voted Tory to just leave the EU. I don't think it's as simple as that though. If that was the only reason, then why aren't people swinging back towards Labour?

I think identity politics in this case means transgender questions, self-ID the undermining of women, the focus on using the right woke language rather than making sure the poor have jobs, homes, food, schools and hospitals.

My Grandad was a miner. He wouldn't vote for this Labour party.
They don't represent working class people and they certainly don't represent women.
Sadly I will be voting anything other than Labour to keep them out.

YANBU, but at least the Conservatives have the brains to realise that they have to put on the pretence of caring, rather than calling people bigots and telling them they are not good enough to vote for your hallowed ideals.

@Tuesdaysintheazores

Identity politics are killing the Labour vote in their traditional heartlands but they appear to be too stupid to do anything about it. Sorry if this is a stupid question but what do you mean when you say identity politics?

I am referring specifically to gender identity politics. Ask Keir Starmer what a woman is & he won’t be able to tell you. Lisa Nandy has said that she believes that male rapists who identify as women should be housed in a women’s prison, the voting public, thankfully, are not that gullible.

@deliciouschilli My Dad just isn't voting.
He used to love politics but is now so apathetic.

I live in one of those areas.

I think demographics is a factor but I think more that it is the fact that we have had no investment for years, nothing, and watched everything going to the South under Governments of all colours.

This problem was/is compounded by local Labour politicians who'd got lazy and complacent with their horizons and ambitions for the area on the floor. There were/ are too many who got their seats on Councils by being a shop steward in the right union and they've never been challenged. The average age of Councillors in our area is over 60 and many of them have been on the Council or in Parliament 25 years or longer. They are so used to doing things the same old way and doing bugger all for the area they don't bother any more and think people will just vote for them. Many of them got a massive shock at the local elections as so many independents were voted in.

Now I think our local Mayor is nothing more to than a populist self publicist with very questionable friends who has actually delivered nothing of substance but talks a good game. I won't be voting for him but the Tories here have grasped that it is (to borrow from Bill Clinton) " the economy stupid", the Labour candidate hasn't and is wittering in about bus routes and women's rights, important issues for sure, but not election winners. The Government are throwing golden pork barrels at our area by the tonne and it is nothing but a bribe. I think most voters know this but when we have had nothing for years, we'll take what we can get. If Scotland give the SNP a majority on Thursday, I expect the pork barrels will all go North to "save the Union".

I honestly think though that the votes are being lent and the Tories given the benefit of the doubt but they'll have to deliver, my god they'll have to deliver, populist short yet musk with no plan won't cut it for long.

Thanks blobblob that's interesting

Just speaking to my Dad about it at the minute. He's ex labour member, former miner, would never vote Tory. He says among his friends that they voted Tory to just leave the EU. I don't think it's as simple as that though. If that was the only reason, then why aren't people swinging back towards Labour?
Yes that's my question as well really.

Important what pp have said about being labelled racist, thick for voting Brexit and things like that. Conservatives are saying no you were right to vote Brexit. And that there's a sense that labour will do what - impose woke on people? rather than say invest in the NHS

Thanks Flumpaphone that's so interesting. Definitely gives a different feel and an interesting point about Scotland. I can see why people think it's worth it. I wonder if they will end up delivering though? I could imagine the PM not being too fussed about following through because he'll be on the speaking circuit earning loads by then.

ofwarren I think the older generation of Labour voters feel betrayed. Labeled as stupid racist old folk who don't understand the new shiney "wokeness" of the new Labour elite.
It's so very sad really.

@Tuesdaysintheazores precisely, my last sentence should have said populist short termism won't cut it for long.

As soon as we're no longer useful to the Tories we'll be thrown under the bus again.

So it's what newnortherner111 said - voting for least worst not best. Although I personally think they're mistaken about what's least worst of course. The Conservatives have done a good trick by making people think they're bringing something new even though they are the ones who've been in charge for a decade.

As soon as we're no longer useful to the Tories we'll be thrown under the bus again.

That seems likely but then again while there's lots of seats to be had will a time come when you're no longer useful? My bet is people will get disillusioned when they don't get what they were promised and when Brexit doesn't turn out to be that good.

I wonder if Labour would be better off directing their attention elsewhere and getting seats from former Conservative voters

@deliciouschilli

My Grandad was a miner. He wouldn't vote for this Labour party. They don't represent working class people and they certainly don't represent women. Sadly I will be voting anything other than Labour to keep them out.

In what way don’t they represent working class people? Which policies, specifically? And in what way do any of the other parties represent them better?

These questions are weird.

Are we meant to be assuming that all politicians are self-serving? Or only Tory ones?

These questions are weird. What's weird?

Are we meant to be assuming that all politicians are self-serving? Or only Tory ones?
Maybe they all are who knows, but we do know the Conservatives are with giving big contracts and money to their mates

They give exactly the same number of fucks they give about anyone living in the traditional Tory heartlands ......ie none

Mind you, the same applies to any political party imo. Which is why I will not vote.

@tanguero 700 people from the EU have opted to remain in Hartlepool , out of a population of 93,000 people.

@Tuesdaysintheazores

These questions are weird. What's weird?

Are we meant to be assuming that all politicians are self-serving? Or only Tory ones?
Maybe they all are who knows, but we do know the Conservatives are with giving big contracts and money to their mates

The assumption is weird.

Look, people who run for local office do it for all kinds of reasons, but most of them want to do well for the people they represent. Some are more self-serving but that doesn't seem to really be more common in one party than the other. Twats are found in both.

As far as the leadership, sometimes I think the leadership can become a little abstracted from the local level. I think this varies over time a fair bit depending on who is in charge among other things.

But I would say that I think if you want to dig down into political ideology, the make-up of both parties has changed over the years. It's not at all clear that Labour really rejects the globalist consensus, and there seems to be less attachment to Thatcherism and neoliberalism among the Conservatives.

But in any care, having people "care" about you isn't that appealing when it is paternalistic and mainly about making more like they are, because they think you are a little shit.

@Tuesdaysintheazores

These questions are weird. What's weird?

Are we meant to be assuming that all politicians are self-serving? Or only Tory ones?
Maybe they all are who knows, but we do know the Conservatives are with giving big contracts and money to their mates

Keep your eyes open for when ex Liverpool Labour mayor Joe Anderson’s corruption case comes to court.