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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask wtf is cis privilege and why does it need to be tackled

310 replies

KateWinceyette · 02/05/2021 22:28

Seriously, what is cis privilege? My phone doesn't know because it corrected it to customer privilege!

Please explain to me in simple terms for I am simply a woman who doesn't get it.

To ask wtf is cis privilege and why does it need to be tackled
OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2021 08:11

If transpeople just wanted to be accepted as the transpeople they are, there would be no need for the word cis.

As transwomen attempt to cuckoo themselves into the word woman, the need for a word that means woman-that-is-not-a-transwoman still exists.

Just the fact that they have to come up with a word like cis is proof they are not the same as the men & women they say they think they are.
Transpeople are the ones othering themselves using the word cis.

It's not a privilege, it's called reality.

Yes, this. Everyone who understands the term "cis" knows it means that, whatever they may tell themselves about it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2021 08:15

medium.com/@rebeccarc/am-i-cisgender-d337512176d

So the only option available to me, if I want to reject the label cis, is to pick some other gender identity. I am not permitted to deny that I have a gender identity at all. But this is in itself oppressive. It makes false assertions about the subjective experience of many people — people like me who do not feel as if we have a deep, internal sense of our own gender, and whose primary experience of gender is as a coercive, externally imposed set of constraints, rather than an essential aspect of our personal identity. It forces us to define ourselves in ways we don’t accept (and, as I’m now learning, if we refuse to define ourselves in this way, this is attributed to bigotry and a lack of empathy for trans people, rather than a reasonable rejection of what being cis entails). If “cisgender” were a description of a medical condition, characterised by an absence of sex dysphoria, then I would accept that I am cis. But if cisgender is a gender identity, which it appears to be, then I am not cis, because I do not have a gender identity. I am a woman. But it’s not because deep down, I feel like one. Because deep down, I just feel like a person.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 04/05/2021 08:30

I don’t feel that I have a gender identity. Why do I need one? I see it like belief in having a soul - if anyone can prove to me it actually exists then I may reconsider.

Otherwise... nah. I won’t play that game.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2021 08:39

I see it in the exactly the same way, toffee. It's a belief. One I don't share.

Kotatsu · 04/05/2021 08:59

Cis privilege means that you have accepted your lot in life. That as a women you deserve to be objectified and discriminated against. You probably actually those things. If you didn’t you would identify out of them.

Exactly this - as a man, perhaps it's fine (kind-of), but as a woman, if you take on the feminine gender, it's more of a straitjacket than a privilege! Made to wear skirts, expected to do sewing not engineering (I was the only person in the whole school to do both for GCSE, and the only girl in CDT at all) etc.

besides which, since when did we start having to identify things we're not? I've got the standard number of legs too, but I don't call myself cis-legged no-one goes around telling me I have leg privilege (even though obviously in this case my life is easier because I've got the usual complement)

To me, it all sounds a bit incelly - they have that idea that being a woman is 'life on easy mode' - from which the idea of cis privilege flows easily.

oxalisRed · 04/05/2021 09:12

@RedToothBrush

Its a way of pretending economic discrimination doesn't exist and that poverty is far more likely to hinder your life opportunities.

Its word salad made up by people with money.

Its fascinating to see how its mainly left wing women who objected to it in the uk initially, many with long track records fighting discrimination. They believe in women's rights, gay rights and workers rights. And have fought hard to gain them. Only to be smeared as right wing Christian fundamentalists which bares no resemblance to the truth.

Why? Ask why the need and desire to do this?

At the same time as being asked to suspend believe in sex and ignore its existence by being taught its a social construct. We all including trans activists, indeed trans activists in particular, know this isn't true. Trans is a reference to sex. You can't be trans without knowing your sex. You can't have a trans identity without acknowledging your sex.

The privilege here is being allowed to say this. Its not women who are allowed to do this. They are labelled as bigoted for mentioning that sex in sport is important because of hormones, muscle structure, muscle strength, height and lung capacity. We are allowed to point out that only women can give birth because of their sex and the can dress up however they bloody like they still run the risk of pregnancy unless they take contraception, harmful drugs with massive side effects and have invasive surgery. And even if infertile are seen as sexual objects and property first before humans. Or if they are past the age of fertility are thought of as bitter, over opinionated and undesirable. Or simply rape or sexual assault targets. All things primarily framed by the gaze of men wanting to get their leg over.

Thats supposed to be a privilege.

Again something framed by the gaze of men who see women's sexuality as their primary asset and get pissed off, if they want that for themselves.

If we dont reject this and decide to all become transman then we are accepting of all this as privilege. We endorse gender stereotypes which suggest our brains fall out at puberty and are happy at being leered at, groped or otherwise targeted physically or verbally for our bodies. Our sexed bodies.

Pointing out that there is are abnormally high correlations between young girls on social media in the west, autism, homophobia, sexual abuse, poor mental health and this manifesting in clusters which are not random in nature but socially connected is bigotted. Pointing out that there is a very definite difference between ages and onset of trans identity in males and females which in other medical settings would ring alarm bells about being completely different cohorts and causation is bigotted. This is because one group benefits from the existence of the other. In other situations you could point out the exploitation of women and girls by older males but not this one. Its not lost on me that the side effects of hormones and surgery are disproportionately worse for females who transition than men, but we can't talk about that. And that drugs used on children (mostly girls) are still experimental and we cant see the research into whether they provide benefits because thats bigotted.

Shouting about cis is supporting mens right activism and preventing proper discussion about where discrimination really happens. If we want to talk snd tackle discrimination we need to observe reality and tackle problems. Not bury heads in sand under the cover of cis nonsense.

Thats not to say trans people aren't discriminated against. Thats say that we can't talk about abuse, harm, economics, exploitation and violence because there is a social hierarchy we must observe which is completely blind to reality and to point this out is bigotted.

Cis privilege is a shield to stop discussion of this to protect males and to sustain ownership and control over women. The end.

And thats why the term is highly offensive.

Such a good post, deserves repeating 👍
Beachcomber · 04/05/2021 09:15

"Cis privilege" is (like many concepts in trans ideology) based on flawed thinking.

White privilege is the concept that white people benefit from racism (whether those white individuals are actually racist or not). The reason they benefit is because society is institutionally and systemically racist.

Straight privilege is the concept that straight people benefit from homophobia and lesbophobia. They benefit as society is institutionally and systemically homophobic.

Same for male privilege. Men benefit from institutional and systemic sexism.

So every time we talk about socio-political privilege we are talking about benefiting as an individual of a category / caste as a result of institutionalised and systemic discrimination.

Transgenderism is rooted in gender. Gender can mean 2 things; biological sex or society imposed sex roles / categories.
In neither of these domains do girls and women have socio-political privilege. Girls and women do not benefit from sexism Or GENDERISM. Girls and women are oppressed by both sexism and genderism.

Therefore the concept of "Cis privilege" when applied to girls and women is flawed to the extent of being vacuous. Even worse it is also totally gaslighting as it tells us that we are privileged thanks to a structure which actually oppresses us.

Having periods or discussing periods is not a socio-political privilege in the sense in which the word is being used (appropriated) by transgenderists. Having periods is a biological fact and a material reality. It is not a political act nor is it a result or benefit of a political act or dogma.

Transgenderists seem to have difficulty differentiating between material reality and ideology.

"Cis privilege" is gaslighting bullshit when applied to girls and women. And when applied to boys and men it is totally unnecessary as we already have the term male privilege.

Trans ideology often does this. It appropriates the language and concepts used to describe the discrimination of minorities then half-bakes them, sticks a rainbow on them and shouts "transphobia" whenever anyone points out the logical fallacy.

Beachcomber · 04/05/2021 09:44

And the reason that transgenderists do not like girls and women discussing menstruation is because it demonstrates material reality. It demonstrates that biological sex exists as an inescapable reality. It demonstrates that MtF transgenderists are not materially female and that they are only ideologically female. And that in turn reminds them that they are only ideologically female if everyone is compliant with the ideology. So shut up talking about female stuff like periods already.

NettleTea · 04/05/2021 10:33

@Beachcomber

And the reason that transgenderists do not like girls and women discussing menstruation is because it demonstrates material reality. It demonstrates that biological sex exists as an inescapable reality. It demonstrates that MtF transgenderists are not materially female and that they are only ideologically female. And that in turn reminds them that they are only ideologically female if everyone is compliant with the ideology. So shut up talking about female stuff like periods already.
this in a nutshell
NettleTea · 04/05/2021 10:41

@Beachcomber

"Cis privilege" is (like many concepts in trans ideology) based on flawed thinking.

White privilege is the concept that white people benefit from racism (whether those white individuals are actually racist or not). The reason they benefit is because society is institutionally and systemically racist.

Straight privilege is the concept that straight people benefit from homophobia and lesbophobia. They benefit as society is institutionally and systemically homophobic.

Same for male privilege. Men benefit from institutional and systemic sexism.

So every time we talk about socio-political privilege we are talking about benefiting as an individual of a category / caste as a result of institutionalised and systemic discrimination.

Transgenderism is rooted in gender. Gender can mean 2 things; biological sex or society imposed sex roles / categories.
In neither of these domains do girls and women have socio-political privilege. Girls and women do not benefit from sexism Or GENDERISM. Girls and women are oppressed by both sexism and genderism.

Therefore the concept of "Cis privilege" when applied to girls and women is flawed to the extent of being vacuous. Even worse it is also totally gaslighting as it tells us that we are privileged thanks to a structure which actually oppresses us.

Having periods or discussing periods is not a socio-political privilege in the sense in which the word is being used (appropriated) by transgenderists. Having periods is a biological fact and a material reality. It is not a political act nor is it a result or benefit of a political act or dogma.

Transgenderists seem to have difficulty differentiating between material reality and ideology.

"Cis privilege" is gaslighting bullshit when applied to girls and women. And when applied to boys and men it is totally unnecessary as we already have the term male privilege.

Trans ideology often does this. It appropriates the language and concepts used to describe the discrimination of minorities then half-bakes them, sticks a rainbow on them and shouts "transphobia" whenever anyone points out the logical fallacy.

and this in an even bigger nutshell

There is no privilege experienced by the many girls worldwide who go through FGM, child marriage, reduced education due to menstruation or pregnancy, war rape, being sold for sex industry, being kidnapped, being aborted, being stoned for wearing the wrong clothing, and on and on and on.

And there is no 'identifying' out of it for the absolute entirety of those girls and women who live in those cultures, and for the huge majority of women who live is less openly misogynistic cultures but still experience sexism and sexual harms.

Cis isnt a term that sits happy on my shoulders, whilst all this STUFF to do with our sex, our sexed bodies, to do with ownership, and exploitation, is still very much at large. I cant 'identify' with being happy with what femininity offers me, but I know in stark reality that my dislike of make up and heels and sweet tempered compliance doesnt make me a man. And further, my identity isnt 'non binary' because although, as a theory, that just about describes every person with free will on the planet, I KNOW that in factual reality I am a woman.

There is no Cis here. There is no privilage.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2021 10:43

To me, it all sounds a bit incelly - they have that idea that being a woman is 'life on easy mode' - from which the idea of cis privilege flows easily.

Absolutely.

IloveJKRowling · 04/05/2021 10:52

besides which, since when did we start having to identify things we're not? I've got the standard number of legs too, but I don't call myself cis-legged no-one goes around telling me I have leg privilege (even though obviously in this case my life is easier because I've got the usual complement) I love this. Funny how no-one ever seems to demand that able-bodied people are constantly aware of their able bodied privilege - which arguably is much more demonstrably real.

To me, it all sounds a bit incelly - they have that idea that being a woman is 'life on easy mode' - from which the idea of cis privilege flows easily.

Yes 'incelly' is absolutely right. Google the cotton ceiling if you dare..... (spoiler: it's all about how women who don't want relationships or sex with transwomen with a penis are exclusionary and bigoted).

I really wish I could magically make every XY human who claims to be a woman actually a woman - a standard, normal woman of the same age as them - for a couple of months. With all the average responsibilities, worries, physical problems and caring duties that normal women of that age have. It would be by far the easiest way to get society to get over this nonsense.

echt · 04/05/2021 11:18

I really wish I could magically make every XY human who claims to be a woman actually a woman - a standard, normal woman of the same age as them - for a couple of months. With all the average responsibilities, worries, physical problems and caring duties that normal women of that age have. It would be by far the easiest way to get society to get over this nonsense

It's a start, but would need years for these people to get it. To know that it's not how a woman feels but also how this feeling is because of others act towards her, how she is treated. Year after fucking year. Millennia. Every culture.

MrsLion · 04/05/2021 11:21

For the love of god. Some people really do have too much time on their hands.

unwuthering · 04/05/2021 13:09

@Beachcomber

And the reason that transgenderists do not like girls and women discussing menstruation is because it demonstrates material reality. It demonstrates that biological sex exists as an inescapable reality. It demonstrates that MtF transgenderists are not materially female and that they are only ideologically female. And that in turn reminds them that they are only ideologically female if everyone is compliant with the ideology. So shut up talking about female stuff like periods already.
So well said.
toffeebutterpopcorn · 04/05/2021 15:00

@MrsLion

For the love of god. Some people really do have too much time on their hands.
Funny how people living in war zones, or facing famine, or who have a 3 hour walk to collect clean drinking water, go to work after (if they are lucky) completing rudimentary education with no hope of further studies, those who have to look after many children and elders to ensure they all eat well and are safe, or work long shifts doing mind numbing /back breaking / very involved work, or have sick family members who take up their time and energy... these guys just get on with it. No navel gazing for them.

What a luxury to have time to contemplate utter nonsense.

LauraAshleyDuvetCover · 04/05/2021 15:38

I'm currently marking and YET AGAIN there are papers where students assume that all the scholars they have to study are men - denoted by the pronoun 'he' to describe them, even when they have visibly female names like 'Kate' or 'Judy'. But if they don't know or cannot be bothered checking then it's 'he'.

This really annoys me. The default academic, lecturer, scholar and researcher has a dick. It is not so much a 'microaggression' as a reminder that the university and academia are not my places as a woman - the default is male.

When I was writing my thesis, I loved it when I got into describing the field in the 1940s and 50s and more women started cropping up. I felt like including their first names and saying "Look, all these women did fantastic things in this area! And I (also a woman) have added a little bit more!"

KOKOagainandagain · 04/05/2021 16:20

I was assigned/observed to be Capricorn at birth. It never felt right. I feel like a Virgo. Virgo is my true identity regardless of when I was born. Cis Capricorn's have never felt my pain and are obviously advantaged. I am now living as a Virgo and feel whole.

I am now awaiting surgery to reduce goat features so that my outward appearance doesn't 'out' me and got a harp cheap on eBay to complete the look.

Be kind.

KOKOagainandagain · 04/05/2021 16:55

Seriously though this is gaslighting misogyny 101. It turns out that male privilege protects equality and that trans activists have no problem with men.

Cis is a term of abuse reserved for women who don't understand they are privileged to imagine they are equal to men and that men cant take away that equality whenever they see fit. You fought long and hard for your so called privileges - look, men can have them too. You think this is about validating experiences of those struggling with gendered identity - think again.

NiceGerbil · 04/05/2021 23:23

There is a thing I really wonder about all this but I've not seen it really raised much, although I've mentioned it before.

Disclaimer: personal views based on my own observations & being the sort of person who talks to anyone & that for some reason random people tell me all sorts of stuff...

  1. Way too many men really do see women / girls over puberty they don't know in terms of 2D cardboard cutouts. EG ballbreaker, jailbait, MILF, gold digger, mumsy, old dear, stuck up, plays hard to get, one of the lads, listener, argumentative, etc etc etc.
Time and time again I have known men that I knew and liked, something has happened and they've gone into that mode. She's an X. Even about women they know well and know are full people who you can't really pigeonhole.
  1. From talking to lots of men and observing they seem to have a massive hierarchical thing going on. I've seen the dick v swinging whether it's men earning £££ in a sales type thing or men vying over a multi sided dice type RPG. In my opinion they do this way more than women who are generally totally out of the picture in this hierarchy
  1. A lot of men who have been GNC famously in the past were cool as fuck and so could get away with it. Money/ girls/ that sort of thing. So although GNC they were still in that game and winning. So when it's said you forgot the 70s, 80s. Those men Bowie etc were still looked up to by other men. The exceptions that proved the rule if you like
  1. So you take the idea that woman is a 2D stereotype and pick one and do the look/ mannerisms associated. BOOM! You're a sexy girl/ sophisticated socialite/etc. Nothing more to them that's not a conscious thing (although demonstrated all the time)
  1. Women girls arguing saying no is not the right thing. Hierarchy, they aren't on it. Again, men I know and like have revealed from time to time that they are pretending to be ok with it but in the end do not like being challenged by women or girls
  1. There is some kind of weird thing going on with a lot of men where they can't understand why it's not a great thing for people of the opposite sex to indicate in all sorts of ways that they want to have sex with you. Women are lucky! What's the fuss about. Who wouldn't want to be propositioned all the time?
  1. Do men tend to feel more a thing inside about identifying with masculinity? I don't know. Could it tie in with the hierarchy thing? Maybe. I don't know.

So in short. And I think the reasons for trans identities in males and females are likely very different. Of course that's something no one is allowed to look into. And I wonder if for men, taking all the stuff above into account, it involves a view of the world, society, men and women and boys and girls, which is really quite different from that of women. Even women who are comfy in their sex role iyswim.

Certainly I can't understand the concept of having a deeply held internal sense of gender ID. Do men more? Are they more aware of their masculinity due to the pecking order stuff?

I have always felt like a person. It actively felt jarring/ pissed me off when I was constantly being reminded I was a girl. It had no relevance for me and just laid assumptions and limitations on me. I know from MN chat/ aibu threads over the years that most women don't feel a strong internal sense of gender ID.

I do wonder if all of this makes sense to men way more than women. It reflects their understanding of society but they don't get that their experience is not global. (Again, shocker).

So, I think much more genuine research needs to be done. It won't be, obviously.

But I for one just Venusberg l genuinely don't get any of it, it has no relevance to my life/ experiences/ feelings.

Of course when women say this we're told we don't know our own minds (that's a new one for women), or we're lying because we're bigots. It's not satisfactory to dismiss genuine gaps in understanding, especially when women's girl's rights spaces etc are being removed super fast.

NiceGerbil · 04/05/2021 23:35

I don't know what Venusberg is but it sounds good. Best random phone word I've had so far! :D

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2021 23:37

And the reason that transgenderists do not like girls and women discussing menstruation is because it demonstrates material reality. It demonstrates that biological sex exists as an inescapable reality. It demonstrates that MtF transgenderists are not materially female and that they are only ideologically female. And that in turn reminds them that they are only ideologically female if everyone is compliant with the ideology. So shut up talking about female stuff like periods already.

Brilliant point.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 04/05/2021 23:51

Don't mention the uterus!

EdwinPootsLovesArchaeology · 05/05/2021 00:14

Your post is great, @NiceGerbil.

It will henceforth forwards always be known as The Venusberg Post.

NiceGerbil · 05/05/2021 01:46

Grin thanks Edwin!

It's a great word. I just invented it and it means whatever I say it means!

(In my imagination it was immediately like an iceberg- massive and unstoppable and dangerous- that was what will happen with women if we get pushed too fucking far!).

(But. It rarely works does it. We just get stomped usually. Male controlled religion/ politics and if it comes to it violence sees to that).

No fuckit. Let's go full Venusberg Grin

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