To want to give my children a private education?

[NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom]

Really need some input to try and persuade my husband!
My three are all quite bright academically and they are all pretty good with music too. Youngest (9) is very sporty as well.

We’ve recently applied for scholarships and bursaries at a local private school and my husband is still very much on the fence about it all.

The two girls (13, 12) have been offered a total of 70% and 75% discount with scholarships and bursaries and the youngest has been offered a total of 55%

I know that my eldest would do well in state school regardless but I think the younger two would absolutely flourish with the smaller class sizes and the sporting facilities on offer.

My husband thinks we’d be better off putting the £15-£20k per year in our pension pots. I’m not currently working but I’m looking for a full time job from September. I’m a teacher so my salary would cover the fees and my mother in law has also offered to contribute £3-£4K a year towards it. His salary is plenty for us to live on comfortably.

DH would like us to sit down with a list of pros and cons for them to attend this school and I’m hoping that mumsnet can help with a list of pros!

@Rizzoli123

My two boys attend private school. They are in reception (from September) and year 1. My oldest is like yours very bright. He can read words from the first time of seeing them. We looked at our local school but the class size was our main problem. One of the schools we looked at had 90 children in the reception year! I thought as he was bright he would get lost. I wanted him to have the best chance i could give him. When we saw the school its everything we wanted. Smaller classes, more focus on the basics and a good overall schooling. The only thing was paying for it. When I worked it out it was the cost of and instead of things that state school i would have to pay for like school means and stationary was included.

Its great that your husband wants to see the bigger picture before he sends your children. He should. For me the question was what is better for my son. What would allow him to grow and for me private won

Ninety in the reception year means three classes, doesn't it? Why would he get lost in his class?

BTW it's 'stationery'

@ilovemydogandmrobama2 We’ve raised the children in the sticks all their lives so in order to be able to see their friends we’ve had to take them there and book in advance as most of the kids around here have very hectic extra curricular calendars! So it wouldn’t be too much different

I read research into A level results at private and state (comprehensive ) schools a few years ago.( Sutton Trust I think.)

They concluded that at best, private schools improved the A level grade by half a grade but that State school pupils, A level grade for A level grade, went on to do better at University.

The factor that correlated best with high achievement academically was whether the child ate with their parents. ( presumably because they would be privy to adult conversation.)

I thought that my money would therefore be better spent supporting my children post 18 or post 21.

I also thought that it was important for children to mix with others from a wide range of social back ground and income if they were to be fully rounded adults - which only a Comprehensive School could provide.

@ilovemydogandmrobama2 We had to submit all valuations for both houses, mortgage statements, pension estimates, several months of bank statements etc. They literally left no stone unturned when it came to looking at how much we were worth.

@jeannie46

I read research into A level results at private and state (comprehensive ) schools a few years ago.( Sutton Trust I think.)

They concluded that at best, private schools improved the A level grade by half a grade but that State school pupils, A level grade for A level grade, went on to do better at University.

The factor that correlated best with high achievement academically was whether the child ate with their parents. ( presumably because they would be privy to adult conversation.)

I thought that my money would therefore be better spent supporting my children post 18 or post 21.

I also thought that it was important for children to mix with others from a wide range of social back ground and income if they were to be fully rounded adults - which only a Comprehensive School could provide.

Well we do eat together at the table as a family, always have, so that’s good to hear! We’ve had some interesting discussions over the years!

@FolkSongSweet

OP my point is that if they are musically gifted then a school orchestra is a waste of time, and certainly not a reason to seek out and pay for a private education. For a serious musician then it’s actually pretty rubbish being forced to play with people of a much lower standard than you, even if they are the same age. There will be others of their age in extra curricular settings at the right level. They should be considering NCO/NYO and as I said conservatoire JDs where there will be lots of peers their age and younger at their standard and higher.

Really depends on the school, some have reasonable standards.

OP says there are a lot of Asian boarders. Asian music students often start a 3/4 so by 13 they’re grade 8.

One of my sisters considered a nearby grammar for her kids. It’s good academically but the music department was just electric guitars.

It sounds like the music provision and the wraparound activities will be a big factor for you, and that's something that private schools tend to do very well. During Covid, our school's music department has been busting a gut to offer as much music as possible - online choirs, 'bubble ensembles' etc to keep the children involved. What's really nice is that there's a focus on both the top and the bottom end - good performance opportunities for the seriously talented Grade 8+ pupils, but also lots of inclusive music for the kids who just want to join in and have a go. Plus, one of the real advantages is the amount of resource - there always seems to be a practice room available, and a music teacher to act as critic or accompanist or whatever at lunchtime or after school.

On a separate note, I really don't like the accusation of hypocrisy further upthread about OP teaching in state but sending her own kids private. I've got a couple of friends who are incredibly dedicated to their jobs teaching in really poor schools, but they choose to send their own children to the much better neighbouring state school. I have never heard anyone criticise them for this or suggest that they're hypocritical for not thinking that the very poor school they work in is not good enough for their own kids. It's only when it's state/private that this argument gets used. And it's like any other type of job - can you only be committed to your job as a social housing manager if you live in social housing yourself? Are you not able to be an effective and caring benefits adviser if you're not on benefits yourself? It's just knee jerk thinking IMO.

Yup, and the added documents added this year was the pension estimates...

Oh yes the expectation is very much if there is spare cash anyway you have to scrape it together/borrow etc

@Grimbelina

Bellisima234 just so, so sorry that you have had that experience. So many parents seem to think that all these schools truly care about their child... pastoral care etc. etc.... and some of those parents look the other way when they have clear evidence that this is not the case.

The Everyone's Invited revelations are even more shocking if we consider that parents (and some parents must have known) what was going on in their children's schools, to their friends' children.

Thank you he has actually thrived at a local state which would not have been our first choice and has had offers from brilliant 6th forms so a positive outcome.

OP there are good and bad schools in both sectors so if you really are convinced its for the best then go for it but go in with your eyes wide open and don’t expect nirvana from any school state or private.

I also thought that it was important for children to mix with others from a wide range of social back ground and income if they were to be fully rounded adults - which only a Comprehensive School could provide.

You can mix with a wide range of backgrounds and cultures regardless of what type of school you go to.

Did it again. Well done.
Hope you start to feel better this evening

It sounds like the music provision and the wraparound activities will be a big factor for you, and that's something that private schools tend to do very well. During Covid, our school's music department has been busting a gut to offer as much music as possible - online choirs, 'bubble ensembles' etc to keep the children involved. What's really nice is that there's a focus on both the top and the bottom end - good performance opportunities for the seriously talented Grade 8+ pupils, but also lots of inclusive music for the kids who just want to join in and have a go. Plus, one of the real advantages is the amount of resource - there always seems to be a practice room available, and a music teacher to act as critic or accompanist or whatever at lunchtime or after school.

Exactly. OP’s kids are obviously keen, so it’s worth nurturing that.

We had to submit all valuations for both houses, mortgage statements, pension estimates, several months of bank statements etc. They literally left no stone unturned when it came to looking at how much we were worth.

Are they a big school or a small one? Are they in need of pupils?

@Wavymess

Did it again. Well done. Hope you start to feel better this evening

Whoops That was to @lazylinguist

I’m going to bow out now as no one else on the thread is arguing
We both know I didn’t mean what you’re saying as literally as you’re taking it, if you need to argue or belittle someone I’m sure there are plenty of other threads for you

It’s not an enormous school - I think there are around 600 pupils from Y3 up to Y13

I wonder if they need pupils, I know some smaller private schools can have quite precarious finances & covid hasn't helped

I’m a secondary teacher and my own experience of state education is terrible. I was left to rot, not challenged in any way and under performed. I always say I passed qualifications in spite of my school, not because of it.

I taught in two rough state schools which were both much better than the school I went to and children did achieve -although many did not.

I began teaching in a non-selective private school and on the first day could have cried when I saw the wonderful experience the children have compared to what I had back in the 80s and what children in tough state schools currently receive. It made me feel emotional as I suddenly realised what education could be.

I don’t think a private Ed is necessary to achieve and I don’t think all children need to have a private Ed but my goodness does it make a difference to the child as a whole person. There is a sense of achievement, a pride in success and good manners are just expected. There are more opportunities and with smaller class sizes, teachers can concentrate on children much more. It goes without saying behaviour is much better (not necessarily perfect) too and therefore school feels much safer.

If you can afford it then do it.

Really difficult to comment without knowing what your local schools are like. For example for me my children were in a feeder primary for a really good outstanding ofsted secondary. We are near to the very popular Surrey Grammars which are incredibly competitive and DS2 didn’t get in, but then we didn’t pay any tuition as we had the local school option, which was our preference anyway really. He left with 9 x grade 9’s (and 2 grade 8’s) so for us paying for private school really wouldn’t have been a huge benefit. Yes we could have afforded it but would have had to sacrifice other things. He’s also such a well behaved and polite boy, he’s 17 soon and looking to apply to Oxbridge. I don’t know what extra benefit we would have got from spending around 125k for the local private secondaries. That money will go towards his uni meaning he won’t need to get any debt and towards a deposit for his first home. However if our local secondary within catchment was terrible it might have been a different story, then we would have thought much harder about private or moving (probably the latter)

@TatianaBis what an absolutely ridiculous thing to say about her husband caring more about himself than his kids.
My FIL spent money he didn’t really have on top fee paying schools (as in he had the money at that moment but hadn’t accounted for Uni, pension etc). He eventually bankrupted himself and his children are going to be supporting him for 20/30 years on top of providing for their own families.
Just because OP husband can sensibly see the whole picture of a life time, and that he isn’t going to want to stop supporting the children at age 18, doesn’t make him selfish. Makes him very appealing in my eyes I cannot stand men who flash more cash than they really have or try and live a lifestyle they can’t really afford.

@Wavymess

I went to a failing state school in a terrible area, got all As at GCSE and at 6th form I went to a bog standard university and got a first, a distinction in my masters and then I got a PhD. I worked since I was 15 to be able to afford all that and I earn an excellent wage now.

I think on MN there’s a tendency to not want children to face a bit of hardship and to give them as much privilege as possible, and whilst that can be a good thing, so can them fighting for what they want.

I think with supportive parents and their own drive children will do anywhere. Private school seems like it just provides a network and role models, as well as more coaching into how to get into those elite universities and jobs.

Have a think about what you’re hoping to achieve by them being in private school, and then maybe see if for less than that 20k or so a year if you could still provide that.
For example could you get them each a tutor, pay for some extra help around university applications time, put them in some better sports clubs etc
Or would more cultural and educational days out and holidays be as enriching. Is there a better state school they could transfer to?

If not, then I think that’s your argument.

I agree with this, one of DD's friends at uni and her friend from private school have struggled quite a lot adjusting to the independent work they have to do now, compared to the more hand holding approach at a lot of private schools. She was comparatively very privileged compared to the rest of the flat and could be quite snobbish and generally sheltered, not very well-rounded or worldly, which seems to be relatively common amongst private graduates- another thing to consider.

OP and her DH do have the money though.

Spending money you don’t have on anything - schools, holidays, hobbies is silly.

@TatianaBis only if they are counting backwards and have excellent pensions, house deposits and university contributions (approx £500 a month per child AFTER their loan). Then they can afford it. It isn’t what they have at this moment, it’s only if they have all of those things covered.

OP and her DH do have the money though.

If the OP gets a FT job & the bursaries don't change.

I definitely would if you can afford it. The equipment is better, facilities are better, sports stuff better. I went to private school for four years and academy for 1 year. Academy was not a patch on the private.

@purpleboy

I have 2 dd's at private school. For us the pros are:

Smaller class sizes
Excellent pastoral support
Wraparound care
Brilliant extra curricular activities

Tbh whilst this might sound horrible, the children have much better manners, doors are always held open, all children saying good morning etc.. when compared with local schools I have been in the difference is amazing.
The schools aspirations for its children are good, there is more encouragement to aim higher.

Good luck.

You must live in a shitty area then because we have all of the things you have listed at my primary school, apart from not small class size (28-30). The wrap around care and extra activities are excellent. Pastoral care is above and beyond. Aspirations are high and manners/good behaviour is also very high priority. We don't have entitled, rude parents and children learn that people come from all types of families/backgrounds.