To want to give my children a private education?

[NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom]

Really need some input to try and persuade my husband!
My three are all quite bright academically and they are all pretty good with music too. Youngest (9) is very sporty as well.

We’ve recently applied for scholarships and bursaries at a local private school and my husband is still very much on the fence about it all.

The two girls (13, 12) have been offered a total of 70% and 75% discount with scholarships and bursaries and the youngest has been offered a total of 55%

I know that my eldest would do well in state school regardless but I think the younger two would absolutely flourish with the smaller class sizes and the sporting facilities on offer.

My husband thinks we’d be better off putting the £15-£20k per year in our pension pots. I’m not currently working but I’m looking for a full time job from September. I’m a teacher so my salary would cover the fees and my mother in law has also offered to contribute £3-£4K a year towards it. His salary is plenty for us to live on comfortably.

DH would like us to sit down with a list of pros and cons for them to attend this school and I’m hoping that mumsnet can help with a list of pros!

Your teacher's salary will come with a very generous pension (employers contribution circa 23%).Factor that into pension calculations. Would you be working full time if not paying school fees?

A few additional things to consider...

Uniform costs - do they cost substantially more than those for state school?

Extracurricular trips - IME, there are many more offered at Private, some of which can cost substantially more than those offered in state school. How would your children feel if they couldn't go because your finances weren't able to stretch?

Friendship groups - outside of school hours, you may have to ferry your children all over to meet up with their friends, whereas in state school friendship groups tend to be more local.

Clothes/Hobbies/Fitting in - are the children in the private school likely to have substantially more expensive tastes than you as a family? Are you able to talk with all of your children about your ability to meet their potential expectations?

School dinners - are they compulsory? How does the cost compare to state school dinners? (Here, SS costs £2 a day, Private around £3.50)

And of course, the bursaries will be renewed yearly, as forensically as they have been for this initial offer. So with your upcoming new job, the award is likely to decrease significantly from next year onwards.

Would you consider sending your children Private for secondary only, so as to offset a little of the overall cost?

For reference, I have one DD in private school on a significant bursary and two boys with SEN who attend SS. I'm a single parent, working but on a low income. DD ticked all of the boxes for a bursary and has generally been very happy at school. It was undoubtedly the best decision for her, I'm very proud of her achievements and the education she's received.

However, it has not been easy. Her school is two bus rides away, 1 1/2 hours each way. Her friends mostly live 15-20 miles away, so she can't just pop out to meet them after school. Her tastes have developed to the more expensive side as she's grown older (though thankfully I've been able to manage her expectations in this respect). We scrape together enough for her to attend one small residential trip a year (about £350-400) and make arrangements to pay in installments. There's no way we could afford the bigger trips, though DD would have desperately liked to go on a couple of them!

I forgot to mention that music classes may be billed in addition to school fees, something else to bear in mind.

So glad it worked out @Bellisima234 and that he's doing so well now. That's how I feel with my son too. He was unhappy and fairly lonely at the private school even in a tiny class, not what I had envisioned for him when I pushed for private school. Thought I was doing the very best thing for him

Now he's just thriving in state, he's got a really big social circle and his reading/writing is going through the roof. He's very good at maths and is really flying with the encouragement he is getting. Honestly I can't speak highly enough of the teaching staff at his primary. They are amazing and so very dedicated to their work. They've managed to spark a passion for learning in him that's pushing him on.

I look back now and shudder at how long it could have gone on for and how much money we could have wasted. It's not really about the money as we paid full fees and it wasn't a great stretch, it was more the principle of paying whilst our child was unhappy.

There are good and bad schools in both sectors OP. Just go in with your eyes open. Oh and be aware of all the extras you'll have to pay for too. It's amazing how quickly the little extras rack up and they start looking for ways to make more money off you (charity donations, school social events, fund raisers, uniform that you can't buy at their second hand shop, on and on).

Good luck whichever way you go.

Tbh you have to look at the individual school to know whether it's right, it's not always the sector you think.
I have a dd who boards and until she went I'd never met a boarder in my life.
I was so anti boarding on here, shameful.
Then me and dh had to decide principles or dd never forgiving us.
I think there can be predjutice and wild assumptions from both sides. Sorry about spelling i'll find the checker

600, including a junior department is pretty small.

Even if only 120 are in the Juniors, that gives 480 in seniors across 7 years which gives very small year groups and is likely to be an extremely small 6th Form. How big are the year groups your children would join and what is the mix of girls and boys? Are there sufficient to get a couple of sports teams out for each girls and boys sport? It’s just worth checking.

Do be aware of the implications of that for GCSE and A Level options and even if the school can afford to offer the full range (would be very expensive) you could be looking at classes in some option subjects which are extremely tiny (classes can be too small for bouncing ideas off each other) or simply don’t run.

Just look into it. This size school is exactly the size that is pulling out if teacher pension and is going to struggle to recruit quality teachers. They are the size that close or merge. They are the size that offer pretty random bursaries and scholarships to attract a few extra £k into the school.

Not all small schools are struggling, but they do need extra investigation to check they really are worth the sacrifice.

What sort of percentages get level 7-9 at GCSE or A*-B at Alevel or equivalent at IB? How many other musicians of the level of your children will a small school like this have or will you still need to go elsewhere for the stretch needed?

Do your children need extra pastoral support or SEN support, as you say the school is strong on that.

What about the 3rd child and paying fees for them too in the near future?

Still very odd to give bursaries to a family with a second property. In the end, the bursary company just does the research and the school decides. But it’s an unusual choice for a school to offer such bursaries and scholarships to 2 kids in the same family at this stage of the school year and process. Have you considered why the school might be doing that? Did you apply to other schools too and find they wanted to offer something similar?

It could be the right thing for your family, but £20k is a huge amount per year for your family from net income. Being private in itself doesn’t make it better or value for money even if the full feees are much more.

Personally I would want to have a job and secure income to add to the family pit if money before saying yes to this and committing. Remember you will be committing to the first terms fees as we are now after Easter.

But I still can’t get over them giving a bursary to 2nd home owners. What do you think those who pay full fees but cannot afford a second property would think about that?

Sorry to throw all this up.....but it’s just fishy to be honest.

@mightymalties School meals are all included and as music scholars they get free lessons.

In terms of school trips, I think we can probably afford to send them on a few each, just not all of them every year!

wombat I agree that there's some element of risk here.

OP, I don't want to set hares running but its possible given that its 3 children, then the bursery might just be a way to get the kids on the books. Once they are in and settled, the bursery could be reduced significantly or withdrawn and you're left with 3 sets of fees to pay. It is something I would seriously consider as a possibility, especially if the school is struggling to compete against another local independent.

Please also be aware that usually music scholars are expected to perform at all concerts, parent's eveninG etc etc. If that child gets sick of the instrument / playing as much (which happens a lot when kids reach mid teens) there is a risk that the music scholarship reduction will be demanded back. Tread very carefully OP

Going by ds and dn, ds very bright went to state school and thrived. Later did degree and masters funded by his employer as he worked a gap year and they kept him and funded his uni qualifications.
Dn very average or even below average academically went to private school throughout left with 2 grade D A levels. Parents now funding his degree in his 30s
I'd say that a private school would have made no difference to ds as he was going to achieve anywhere but I'd say that in state school dn wouldn't have achieved the results he did.
If your dc are able then I'd wonder how much worth there would be in pursuing an independent school education when your dh is seemingly reluctant.

I'm just astonished at the 'charity' given by the school to such a relatively high earning family.
We're always told about the poor families these schools help in order to justify their charitable status. But phew!

But to help answer your question: if your kids are bright they'll do fine without the extra help. And music scholarships can be quite arduous. DN had one and was run ragged by what was required. Ended up
So run down that she came close to cocking up her A levels. Just about got away with it. But the pressure was horrible.

Presumably your 12 and 13 year old are well settled in to a secondary school already? Are you happy with the school? How do they feel about changing at this stage? Do they have good friends? Does it have any music facilities? How much are you currently paying for music lessons? Presumably at around £40 an hour you are paying a significant amount? If they had the free lessons would you stop paying that amount? Would they want to leave their regular teacher? Do they love music? It’s true they will be expected to participate in recitals etc. For some kids that would be a joy but only if they are naturally that way inclined.
How did the offer of the scholarship arise? Did they do entrance tests/ auditions?

I think private school fees come after day to day living, saving and pensions. Giving up you pension contributions each year is a massive decision. Are you planning for your children to fund your old age as it would be a burden for them.

There were lots of families at the dc's schools whose parents had consciously decided to have only one child because they couldn't stretch to fees for more than one. Families on probably £90k - £100k. (London). It doesn't seem fair that you and your dh have decided on three children AND private education which is subsidised by families who have consciously decided to have only one child.

That irks op. It seems very unfair. Particularly so when combined with the fact that you have also been a SAHM. I would venture at the very least that you might have gone back to work 10 years ago in order to save up towards the education you want for your children.

There's something about this that sticks in my craw.

I think at a combined income of £130k you can probably afford 1 set of school fees ( it is buy 1 get 2 free!).

@PlanDeRaccordement

I think the pros and cons is a good way to evaluate. I can’t recommend you one or the other. So these are just thoughts. I am thinking mostly of cons because other posters have focussed on the pros so while I agree with all the prior posters im trying to justify present new thoughts instead of repeating. Apologies if I do end up repeating.

• The bursaries you’re being offered are likely based on your current household income. Once you get a FT job, they will adjust the bursaries. So the £s you need could be higher than you currently think.

• children privately educated are not eligible for contextual offers from top universities. Contextual offers mean a child can get into a top uni with lower grades on their A levels than the published course grade requirements. So your children will be under more academic pressure.

• what is state of your pension savings? If the £20k a year is on top of substantial savings, then yes you could probably afford private schools. But if you only have state pension and very small pension, sadly I think your husband may have a point. You shouldn’t sacrifice financial security in retirement to privately educate your children.

-what are State school options? Do you have any grammar schools or outstanding schools nearby? The balance tips in favour of private education if you have bad local schools or cannot get a place at a good local school.

• school culture. How well would your children fit in? Being a poor “charity” student at a posh school is high risk for bullying. Facilities and tours show the features of a school, but it’s the other students and teachers that can make it a great school for them or a living hell.

Think you are massively missing the point with contextual offers. For a start they're not offered at the top-most universities. Secondly imagine the pressure at a crap school to get top grades if you're up against students from a naice private school? Now that's pressure. You talk about contextual offers like they're an advantage; they're not. They're a levelling off. Jeez.

I am extremely wary of small classes and wince when people list that as an advantage especially for girls. My poor sister was trapped and bullied for years at a tiny state primary as there were no other friendship options. I watch my own dc find lovely friends that suit them after a few false starts because the friendship pool is so deep they can move on it if doesn’t work out.

We also like being in the community and having local friends as dh had to travel miles each day for his out of area state secondary and he hated it and he didn’t want that for ours.

We could have afforded private at some stretch but chose to live next to top single sex state and both girls very happy and thriving there. We supplement sport and music ourselves. That said as they get older the activities fall away somewhat anyway ours both have one activity each plus instrument for one. We both went state and dh went to Cambridge so we don’t think it’s worth the outlay if there’s a decent state option. If not it might be.

I would do it in your shoes I think. Mostly because you aren’t happy with the state options. I deliberately moved close to a good state option for my DD because that was what I wanted for her, but it sounds like yours are failing your children in terms of arts based opportunities. Re the bursaries/scholarships - you must feel v proud that you have raised such capable and talented children and if the school feels that are such a good fit, this would make me want to send them there. Financially, if you are prepared to work now and devote most of your salary to educating your children then that seems admirable and totally your prerogative. I am not v pro private schools personally but in your situation with all things taken into consideration I actually think it sounds like the right path to take.

@MrsTSwift my dc went to London independents, often discussed in awed tones on the SW London school threads. They didn't have particularly small classes before A'Level. The schools are usually close to the tops of the league tables.

Fortunately mine are v grown up now and when we made choices you just applied to closest independent you liked, they sat a test and you just chucked them in without further ado. I suspect people used to listen better to the advice of headteachers so fewer applied and fewer were disappointed.

My sister was adamant she wanted her kids to go to private school. She was convinced it would give them an advantage and they would meet rich friends that would make good relations for the future.

The reality was quite different. The only private school that offered enough reduction in the form of bursaries and scholarship was not the one offering all the things she imagined in her fantasies. Her kids did well at GCSEs, but not so much at all with their A levels because the teachers were leaving and teaching was quite poor. The school has closed a couple of years later due to financial insolvency.

They are now at mediocre unis, not really sure what they want to do and in no better position than my two who went to state school. They do not hang around in high society with rich friends.

My OH and I are do to retire in 3 years time in our mid 50s because we’ve paid extra in our pension. My DS said that sending her kids to this private school for all those years was her biggest regret. She won’t retire any time soon and is exhausted.

Private schools don’t always deliver the fantasy we dream off, especially the smaller ones.

Just to add that my kids who did go to the local under average college got much better A levels results than their cousins.

@MsTSwift

I am extremely wary of small classes and wince when people list that as an advantage especially for girls. My poor sister was trapped and bullied for years at a tiny state primary as there were no other friendship options. I watch my own dc find lovely friends that suit them after a few false starts because the friendship pool is so deep they can move on it if doesn’t work out.

We also like being in the community and having local friends as dh had to travel miles each day for his out of area state secondary and he hated it and he didn’t want that for ours.

We could have afforded private at some stretch but chose to live next to top single sex state and both girls very happy and thriving there. We supplement sport and music ourselves. That said as they get older the activities fall away somewhat anyway ours both have one activity each plus instrument for one. We both went state and dh went to Cambridge so we don’t think it’s worth the outlay if there’s a decent state option. If not it might be.

This was my DD. Moved from big, boisterous, all ability state primary in London to tiny village school in Cornwall and was bullied by a set of girls who were essentially all the same. It followed her through first years of secondary but fortunately a big gene pool eventually asserted itself

Difficult dilemma OP.
Re music - if your county music service is excellent (some still are) and the independent school’s music offering is good, then it is hard to give up the County/NYO opportunities leading to inevitable clashes and lots of commitments.

An Indy school music scholarship usually comes with free lessons but the tutor may not be as good for your child as one you have sought out. There is also an absolute expectation that your child will attend multiple rehearsals, exhibitions (competitions) and performances.

We’ve done various combinations with my DC. One Comp had a very good orchestra led by a shining light in the county service, one had a rather ramshackle one which gathered a few times a year with the good county players dragging the others along but it was fun. The independent school orchestra was very good but not as good as the best of the county stuff.

My DC just didn’t like the small independent. It was too small, too traditional, too competitive (amongst the pupils). The staff were mainly good but some disappointing exceptions. Although the sport, food and activities were excellent there was a lot of homework every night which organised our family time.

This DC is at a nice but not excellent Comp now. Much happier with the wider choice of friends, a huge group of fellow creative students and a more vibrant energy.

My kids have been to 2 state and 2 independent schools between them and the very best teacher we have come across is in the “worst” school.

The thing we have not been able to replicate is the joy of proper choral singing several times a week. I’ve accepted that outside of a cathedral choir that just doesn’t happen in state sector but that’s probably the case for lots of independent schools too.

Good luck OP. It’s sounds like you have made your decision but you and your husband need to arrive at a shared decision you can all live with.

For what it’s worth my DD goes to a school lots of poverty it’s results not that great. However the key was friends so they went together and because they are academic they get pushed. They are the minority and in private the will be vying with all the other children. Also I went to a rubbish state school and we almost uniformly have better jobs than our private school counter parts. I can totally see the attraction though so it’s really a personal choice. The pros are all the things other people of said.

Although I think op should go private. There is a type of parent who is quite intense very focussed on activities and their dc achievement and demanding of staff. I don’t think you will be happy at state as parents just don’t get that support/input from the school. A friend is like this and she is so much happier now her kids in private even if on balance her kids would have been perfectly good at my kids excellent state school. We went to an event there once and there was wine and canapés for parents 😁