To want to give my children a private education?

[NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom]

Really need some input to try and persuade my husband!
My three are all quite bright academically and they are all pretty good with music too. Youngest (9) is very sporty as well.

We’ve recently applied for scholarships and bursaries at a local private school and my husband is still very much on the fence about it all.

The two girls (13, 12) have been offered a total of 70% and 75% discount with scholarships and bursaries and the youngest has been offered a total of 55%

I know that my eldest would do well in state school regardless but I think the younger two would absolutely flourish with the smaller class sizes and the sporting facilities on offer.

My husband thinks we’d be better off putting the £15-£20k per year in our pension pots. I’m not currently working but I’m looking for a full time job from September. I’m a teacher so my salary would cover the fees and my mother in law has also offered to contribute £3-£4K a year towards it. His salary is plenty for us to live on comfortably.

DH would like us to sit down with a list of pros and cons for them to attend this school and I’m hoping that mumsnet can help with a list of pros!

It’s 3 for the price of 1 OP so why not!! Go for it OP, they’re obviously bright kids. If it was wine on the rack at Tesco, I’d be right in amongst it, getting the deal! 💃

@Toomuchtrouble4me

In London the ceiling for a discount is an 80k salary - although that would only be about 10% discount. I’m a teacher and my husband works in finance - we have two on 100% bursary and one on 80% at a different school. They take into account income, amount of children, and outgoings. We also have a second home which we told them about as it’s our pension pot. The benefits are smaller class sizes, hopefully higher expectations, connections, resources, opportunity. There are a few private schools which just boast along on past reputation and parents tutoring to death but if you can get in a good one you couldn’t give them a better start in life. Our schools are amazing and I am so grateful. You need to have bright kids who are willing to put in the work though - they are really really pushed, especially near exam times, it can be tough but the holidays are long.

When you say 80k is about 10% how does finance plus teaching fit?

Isn’t it higher than what is required for 100% bursaries? Intrigued!

@mariabwebster

Private education destroys more than it gives

I be don’t agree - please explain?

I can give you the pros but you really must understand some cons swell.
NOT ALL PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE THE SAME! You must be very clear in your mind about what you want from the school. There are private schools who will take your money ( and lots of it plus all the extras for uniforms - which don't come from the supermarket ranges!) but they don't get great academic results when you compare them to good state schools. Also private schools get bad behaviour / swearing/bullying / drugs etc just like state schools except it docent seem so bad as generally private schools are smaller.

Both my children have been through private schools and I am a teacher in the state sector. So I have seen both sides. Both my children are academic and always wanted to go to a top university but had they not been I probably would have saved the money and used it for a deposit on a flat for them as adults or paid off my mortgage. Private school allowed them to do subjects like Latin and Ancient Greek which they could not do in state school. Also there were more sporting opportunities like rowing which are rare in the state sector.
Also take a good look at the funding and finances of the school - plenty of private schools near us have gone bust in the past few years and no doubt more schools will follow. You will get no warning a private school is about to go bust as they can shut overnight and you will have no protection. This is a very real problem and happened to us - leaving us to find a school place very quickly in an overpopulated area. Just because a school is private doesn't mean it has pots of cash or is financially well run.
No school is perfect and I genuinely believe that some of these private schools are a total rip off. Just be very clear about what you want for your child in the long run and please do your homework. Don't be persuaded by the shiny literature and the flashy website. The reality can be very different. Can I ask what area you are in?

And there in your reply lies the very issue at hand!!
Its a lazy and meaningless response, yet sadly a belief held by many... usually those who are holding on to their comfortable, privileged positions!!
I don’t care if life is “ not fair”.... we should do all we can as humans to try to remedy this above all else

Bright kids will do well at any reasonable state or private school. If they are slow or middle of the road the smaller class sizes will be useful to them.

Both my D.C. went to state schools and got great qualifications and went on to get good degrees. They now have a massive advantage over the public school boys they are in graduate trainee roles with because they are used to independent learning and self motivating whereas their public school colleagues were often more spoon fed as they grow up.

@shallIswim. We had to move them from their primary due to bullying and we needed a school which was from primary to end of senior. Thankfully in the end dc 1 was only their for three terms and we moved the other two PDQ after that.

I haven’t read the full thread, just the initial post. With scholarships that generous I would say go for it, you would be mad not to. My three children all started off at state school (independent school doesn’t sit well with me for a number of reasons BUT you do what’s best for your children). Without going into detail, we moved all 3 to independent school and they have flourished! The small classes, additional facilities / opportunity make a huge difference and I can honestly say it’s been the making of them. Starting out in the state system has been a bonus as they all appreciate how fortunate they are to attend the school they do - they realise it’s not the “norm” and appreciate it.

Mine are age 11, 10 and 6, all at prep school, I really don’t think you will regret sending them the independent route. We are in an area with selective secondary schools and our eldest will be going to a state Grammar school in September - slightly odd situation where we live as the state Grammar schools are amazing and offer good facilities / achieve better results than the independent schools - if she didn’t have that opportunity My preference would definitely have been to stay independent.

Fantastic scholarships to obtain! Congratulations.

See my earlier post above please for that

There's an awful lot of nonsense on this thread about state schools. My dd is happy and thriving in her bog standard comp. She's very confident and articulate, on track to get her string of straight 9s and hasn't ever been bullied for being smart. She couldn't have done any better in a private school. I maintain the view that bright kids with supportive parents will do well anywhere.

Oops, sorry about the random bold - don't know how that happened.

Totally agree!!

Also, I'm very suspicious of that bursary - sounds like a school who are really down on numbers and need more pupils. Near us some private schools will take you if you have a pulse as they are just desperate to bump up the numbers with nice, good children to cover up for the awful ones.

I’d just be conscious of the cons too. And they are not just financial. Many people I know whose parents scrimped for private school felt as if they had a price on their head and it was incumbent upon them to go to a good uni, get a high earning job etc. Thats a lot of added pressure.

If it stops you going on holidays, doing interesting extra curricular stuff like theatre/concerts/unusual sports then that should be factored in too.

Finally, bear in mind that your kids will be in a bubble of affluence. That can lead to real misery if they compare what they have and do and view that negatively.

Is the government's music and dance scheme no longer running?

My three all went to secondary school on this and it covered all the fees including high level specialist one to one tuition on two instruments. When my youngest decided during year 10 that she didn't actually want to pursue a career in music and we agreed that she should leave after GCSEs and allow the funded place in 6th form to go to a child who did want to, she came home and went to a state 6th form college in the nearest town and actually cost a lot more during those two years in bus fares and lunches than she'd cost me in the previous two years because the government scholarship paid everything!
The drawback is that they were all full boarders as the school was over 400 miles away and they really do have to be of a very high standard. (Grade 8 with distinction on their first instruments at 11 with good keyboard skills to back this up.)
When it came to it, only one child actually went into the classical music industry and he's had a pretty rough ride of it the last couple of years as Covid hit just as his career was taking off. The other child decided not to pursue music during her final year in senior school. That notwithstanding, all three benefitted greatly from attending the school in many other ways, small classes, excellent discipline and pastoral care and, it does have to be said, sharing their school life almost exclusively with children from supportive homes with parents who had equally high expectations of them.

YANBU. The main benefit is that the “problem” kids from bad families get filtered out by inability to pay, and those who are disruptive are very quickly removed. It creates a much nicer environment for the kids who actually want to learn.

How long is it since you last worked OP? Will you be able to walk back into teaching?

Your DH’s salary doesn’t sound like a lot for 3 children so for me it all hinges on if the financial support stays the same given your income if you get a job.

I’m very confused about the financial support though. We have a combined salary of 80k and would be entitled to very little so it’s not an option for us to send our children to private school, eldest is also musically gifted. How on earth did you apply to this school and find this out? (Asking for tips)

If you can afford it I would send your children to private school instead of the local comprehensive school. If you have a good state sixth form, I would then send them there.

If u can afford it, do it. Leaves good school places for those who can't. Bt mostly it is a different world, in every way, the results, friendships, manners, opportunities and encouragement they receive is second to none. We are in the same position with a scholarship and are definitely taking it 😊 For ppl who say there's lots of extras, there would be even more at state scool where they raise funds from any way they can. Ppl always say bright kids will do well anywhere, it simply isn't true, i learnt this having been sent to the local private school against my heads thinking, he was right tho my mum wanted the easy life not having to take me to school!!

If you can afford it, go for it. I would. This isn’t to say that I am against state schools. I was not privately educated. I went to a ‘rough’ school but still got 9 A-C grades. Attended an average uni achieved a first. I know of some outstanding secondary schools and the standards for teaching and behaviour are high. So I guess it depends on the school.

I have 3 grandchildren at state school in a middle class area (11, 9 and 6) and three in private education in the south east (13, 11 and 8).
The difference is incredible - especially in senior school.
Oldest in private education - school starts at 8.30 and finishes at 4.30. She is in a small class and is academically stretched and absolutely loves it. The facilities are amazing for sport and drama etc and she is encouraged to join everything. During the pandemic her school day on line began and ended at her normal school hours. Video lessons were brilliant (believe me - if they hadn't been my daughter in law would have told me!). Her teachers were in frequent contact - super encouraging and smiley. The 11 year old's day at her state comp finishes at 2.30 but they have a short lunch break which is supposed to discourage bullying (!!!!). I know a local private maths tutor who has an awful lot of children from that school going to her lessons and is horrified at their level of maths attainment. I've helped my granddaughter with her English because her spelling and grammar is atrocious. And don't get me started at the absolutely shocking level of school work during much of the pandemic..... let's just say that it was woeful.
The four children of primary school age going to private versus state? There is honestly no comparison.
We lived in a grammar school area for 10 years and the state school primary system there was excellent - it had to be because most parents wanted their children to pass the 12+ exams and parents were really involved with their schools. The grammar schools were excellent. A lesser known effect of the comprehensive system (yes - I absolutely know that the comp system has good points, too) is that primary schools don't have to try as hard to get their pupils into a good selective school. Moving to a comprehensive area when our youngest was 12, I visited a state school with an excellent reputation. Walking along the corridor with the deputy head we came across an enormous, glowering boy who' told us he'd been thrown out of class for bad behaviour and didn't seem to be the least bothered by it. I then visited some private schools. There was no contest. Although we had 2 at university at the time (that was a large financial outlay already) - we chose to send our youngest to private school. Not all private schools are good and not all state schools are bad. You have to do your homework. But in our experience, private education is worth every penny if you can afford it. And just in case you think private is only for the elite, our daughter's best friend's parents were immigrants and her mother worked long hours in a low paid job to pay for her daughter's education. That wasn't uncommon.

Private vs state is far too simplistic to decide - there is such a range in both that without knowing the individual schools the OP is choosing between, it’s very difficult to give meaningful advice. An oversubscribed state school in an affluent area with sought after places will offer a very different experience to an inner-city comp where you fear being jumped on a daily basis (I acknowledge that there are also some amazing inner-city schools - I’m just speaking generally).

Well done for getting such generous bursary/ scholarship offers. Pros : many things you have to pay for in state schools will or might be included ( wrap around care, transport to sporting events , sports or music training, sometimes meals/ trips - depending on the school) so ensure you are “ balancing the books” equitably. Shorter terms but often ( not always) better online support/ book and materials provision ( dt, home ec, art, photography etc). Facilities will probably ( but not invariably- again depends on school) be better - science labs, sports equipment, music rooms etc. There will be smaller classes. I think you need to look carefully at both options rather than deciding purely based on scholarship ( noting fees will increase as time goes on). A mediocre or average / struggling small independent school needing to boost numbers will obviously not necessarily be better than a well funded and high achieving academy or grammar school in an area which finds it ( relatively ) east to attract good and dedicated staff ( some of whom will only work in state sector on principle). However a high achieving, encouraging and well equipped independent school with a good ofsted and isis report and happy staff / pupils ( ignore online sales pitches and park outside and watch pupils going in/ coming out - are they in happy , chatting groups or care worn and downcast) will offer many advantages in terms of academic support, extra curricular activities etc. Private schools can also offer ongoing support/ uni applications/ career advice for years after - something state schools mostly simply can’t afford to do. Word of caution- note if your children are exceptionally bright going to an independent school ( even in a bursary) will exclude them from access to university events / activities / courses designed specifically to broaden top uni intakes - you don’t get to have it both ways!!!

@Kangaroobill

How long is it since you last worked OP? Will you be able to walk back into teaching?

Your DH’s salary doesn’t sound like a lot for 3 children so for me it all hinges on if the financial support stays the same given your income if you get a job.

I’m very confused about the financial support though. We have a combined salary of 80k and would be entitled to very little so it’s not an option for us to send our children to private school, eldest is also musically gifted. How on earth did you apply to this school and find this out? (Asking for tips)

When your child gets into year 5 or just before, ring up the local private schools and enquire about scholarships/bursaries. If the private school has a web site have a look on there.

Seriously people make it sound like going to a state school is some death knell.

There are some truly excellent state schools (and some awful ones).

The vast majority can never afford. I hate the altitude, must remember Mumsnet is not in any way representative of true society.