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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to give my children a private education?

613 replies

NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom · 02/05/2021 15:47

Really need some input to try and persuade my husband!
My three are all quite bright academically and they are all pretty good with music too. Youngest (9) is very sporty as well.

We’ve recently applied for scholarships and bursaries at a local private school and my husband is still very much on the fence about it all.

The two girls (13, 12) have been offered a total of 70% and 75% discount with scholarships and bursaries and the youngest has been offered a total of 55%

I know that my eldest would do well in state school regardless but I think the younger two would absolutely flourish with the smaller class sizes and the sporting facilities on offer.

My husband thinks we’d be better off putting the £15-£20k per year in our pension pots. I’m not currently working but I’m looking for a full time job from September. I’m a teacher so my salary would cover the fees and my mother in law has also offered to contribute £3-£4K a year towards it. His salary is plenty for us to live on comfortably.

DH would like us to sit down with a list of pros and cons for them to attend this school and I’m hoping that mumsnet can help with a list of pros!

OP posts:
shallIswim · 03/05/2021 09:20

@OnTheHillNotOverIt

Difficult dilemma OP. Re music - if your county music service is excellent (some still are) and the independent school’s music offering is good, then it is hard to give up the County/NYO opportunities leading to inevitable clashes and lots of commitments.

An Indy school music scholarship usually comes with free lessons but the tutor may not be as good for your child as one you have sought out. There is also an absolute expectation that your child will attend multiple rehearsals, exhibitions (competitions) and performances.

We’ve done various combinations with my DC. One Comp had a very good orchestra led by a shining light in the county service, one had a rather ramshackle one which gathered a few times a year with the good county players dragging the others along but it was fun. The independent school orchestra was very good but not as good as the best of the county stuff.

My DC just didn’t like the small independent. It was too small, too traditional, too competitive (amongst the pupils). The staff were mainly good but some disappointing exceptions. Although the sport, food and activities were excellent there was a lot of homework every night which organised our family time.

This DC is at a nice but not excellent Comp now. Much happier with the wider choice of friends, a huge group of fellow creative students and a more vibrant energy.

My kids have been to 2 state and 2 independent schools between them and the very best teacher we have come across is in the “worst” school.

The thing we have not been able to replicate is the joy of proper choral singing several times a week. I’ve accepted that outside of a cathedral choir that just doesn’t happen in state sector but that’s probably the case for lots of independent schools too.

Good luck OP. It’s sounds like you have made your decision but you and your husband need to arrive at a shared decision you can all live with.

This is still true in Cornwall - great county music service with ensembles full of kids from many backgrounds. It helps that the county is strong in brass bands so those kids help balance the private school flutes and violins!
LilMidge01 · 03/05/2021 09:38

Just trying to think from your children's point of view, with everything you've said...tbh I'd prefer going to a state school with my parents financial support for loads of extra curriculars, opportunities for trips, support for private music tutors, auditions etc (especially given their musical and film interests) and then also have parents in a stronger financial position to support me in uni/early adult life (again, given their interests they're unlikely to be high earners straight out the gate..success will be longer term. Nothing wrong with that, but they may need more parental support at the beginning), and also have parents with a strong pension pot and retirement plans....

BreakfastClub80 · 03/05/2021 09:43

I think you’ve been given a lot to think about OP, for what it’s worth I’d add....

The school sounds quite small, our DD’s school (indie) has 500 pupils up to age 13 and she’s now in a year group of 40, with only 10 girls (yr 7 & 8 are the smallest years as a few leave at end of year 6). Luckily she’s happy with the mix but I think she will appreciate the larger number of girls at senior school after this. The school combine the year 7 & 8 girls for sports teams. DD isn’t particularly sporty so this is ok but if she was then I think it wouldn’t be ideal.

Your children sound like they would fit in well, in terms of their strengths and extra-curricular activities. For sports scholarships, the schools around us require children to be playing for outside clubs and sometimes for county teams when they get to senior school, if you’re looking towards this then it’s worth finding out what is needed. I think that when children do lots of extra curricular activities, they often do get the most out of private schools and it can be very convenient to have so many activities attached to the school day.

Bear in mind that your children could choose a different 6th form college, they don’t have to stay until they’re 18. My eldest DN chose a local 6th form college instead of continuing at her private school and another DN is also looking into this.

There will be parents at the school who complain, unfortunately some forget that even though they’re paying, it is still an institution providing education to a group of children. Every decision won’t suit everyone. Don’t be put off by this unnecessarily, but don’t expect the school to be perfect.

I didn’t go to private school but to a dreadful state senior school back in the 80’s (think strike action, low expectations, low aspirations). I did work, a bit, thanks to my parents expectations and went onto good things but I can see how I would have thrived if I’d been surrounded by kids and teachers where working consistently was the norm for everyone. I know that there are concerns over the amount of pressure kids are under today but the opposite wasn’t great either. The comparison for you will depend on your local state school obviously.

Mix of kids - we have a lot of professional families at our school so although there are a few who are very wealthy, it’s not the norm. The attitudes of most seem to come from home, but we’ve only ever really known one or two tossers who brag about it (and they tend not to be popular - one has gone off to their local state senior school too so maybe not confined to indies).

Good luck, I hope you can come to a joint decision that you’re both happy with.

Flemingshat · 03/05/2021 09:59

Private schools are businesses, true, but frankly state schools are being run more and more like businesses thanks to the government.

Partly why I pulled my DC out. He's home educated now.

MasterGland · 03/05/2021 10:03

Every time one of these threads pops up I say the same thing; schools are individual entities that develop unique individual cultures. State or Private is not the question you should ask yourself. You need to find a school that is right for your child.

I would like to address a few things that have been mentioned, though.
Firstly, the point about private schools being businesses. So are the majority of state secondaries now. The academies programme has really changed the way Heads (sorry, CEOs Hmm) run their schools.

Also, the point about developing resilience in a child, by encouraging them to strive in difficult schools, OWTTE. From my personal experience, I wholeheartedly disagree with this. My mother thought I should "strive" through school and so did nothing when I told her that the children at my school spat on each other for fun, and that I was mocked for answering questions in class. Yes, she could not have afforded private school, but she could have moved house to find me a school with a better culture. She prioritised holidays abroad and buying crap. I have not forgiven her for it. I have moved house and changed my job (and career) so that my son has a happy experience at school.

Flemingshat · 03/05/2021 10:39

Also, the point about developing resilience in a child, by encouraging them to strive in difficult schools, OWTTE. From my personal experience, I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

I totally 100% agree with you on that. I think it's such a weird way to think. Like, why would you want to teach your child to stay in an environment that is damaging to them?

I always encounter that argument from people when it comes to home education and why I shouldn't do it.

serin · 03/05/2021 10:59

We turned down free places at the "excellent" private school where DH teaches as we didn't want our children to have to cope with the constant pressure of that level of academic achievement. Anything less than an A is basically considered a fail. There is also a huge amount of one upmanship. DH heard one child tell another, "you just live in a farmhouse, I have a proper mansion" yuck.
Our local private school has a fair few children who have parents in prison for corruption, dodgy business deals, drug dealing etc. I guess thats understandable, not all people rich enough to afford the fees will have got there through legal means.
My lovely neice goes to private school and has been hopelessly messed about by it, suddenly merging and relocating to a site many miles further away in her GCSE year, then threatening to close completely in her A level year.
Finally, I have a friend who works in a CAMHs in patient unit. 30% of the teens admitted there are in private education. That is alarming, since only 6% of UK pupils got to private school. Mainly self harm, anxiety and anorexia.
Our DC all went to university, they have several friends who went to Oxbridge from the state system. They all play music, (one has sang for the pope). They row, sail and play rugby. Those opportunities are still out there with or without private schooling.
For us the drawbacks of private were just too great.

TatianaBis · 03/05/2021 11:08

@NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom

NYO is quite a leap for a child who’s only been learning 18 months.

If they’re string players the NYSO intermediate orchestra age range 9-12, grades 5-8+ would be more feasible.

How good is their sight reading for a start. They’re learning with teachers in school and those are generally quite poor. A good teacher would run their own studio.

TatianaBis · 03/05/2021 11:14

Finally, I have a friend who works in a CAMHs in patient unit. 30% of the teens admitted there are in private education. That is alarming, since only 6% of UK pupils got to private school. Mainly self harm, anxiety and anorexia.

Depends where she is located. If it’s in London 20-50% of the children in most boroughs are in private school.

The % may also reflect educated parents pushing for the right diagnoses and treatment for their kids. Parents with lower education levels are less likely to be clued up on, or seek, treatment.

RosesAndHellebores · 03/05/2021 11:29

Completely agree with TatianaBis. The only reason my dd was accepted by CAMHS was because of my advocacy. In the first instance they turned her away despite self harming by withholding food, cutting and Od'ing. It was a private psychiatrist who diagnosed the underlying cause of her depression and anxiety. ADHD/ADD for which she is now under the adult ADHD unit, albeit not without pressure being applied. She was from a loving home and high performing and no problems were picked up until she was 15.

I imagine if she'd been in a huge co.p, surrounded by dysfunctional and disruptive behaviour she might just have sunk without trace, ended up with poor GCSEs and A'Levels dropping out somewhere along the way. And it would have been regarded as par for the course for that demographic and school. Instead she talked to me, was referred, got help, and is at Cambridge. Where she would have ended up in a different family or at a different school or if we hadn't had the means to pay for a consultant psychiatrist is anybody's guess.

You wouldn't come across many children with a shortened leg nowadays due to a break being inadequately treated or infection setting in or even having lost part of their leg as a result which was common place 100 or so years ago. But many many young people are left disabled due to their mh due to a complete lack of adequate services.

NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom · 03/05/2021 11:48

[quote TatianaBis]@NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom

NYO is quite a leap for a child who’s only been learning 18 months.

If they’re string players the NYSO intermediate orchestra age range 9-12, grades 5-8+ would be more feasible.

How good is their sight reading for a start. They’re learning with teachers in school and those are generally quite poor. A good teacher would run their own studio.[/quote]
You seem to be very dismissive of my children’s musical ability and to suggest that their music teacher is poor because she doesn’t have her own studio is equally as rude.

They’ve all been in ensembles and orchestras since they first began playing, first at beginners and then at intermediate. Their sight reading is very good and they will be taking their G5 theory next month.
I don’t believe they are musical prodigies by any stretch but the opportunity to develop their musical interests in an environment that encourages this is a big plus in my eye.
I don’t want to send them to the independent school in order that they leave with gazillions of A* grades, but what I do want is for them to be able to flourish in an environment that provides them the best opportunity to achieve to the best of their abilities, academically or in other areas. I don’t believe they are currently in a school that will enable them to do this.

OP posts:
PegPeople · 03/05/2021 11:53

Have you had chance to consider some of the very relevant points that people have made yet, such as

Do your children all want to move?
What happens if one loses their bursary?
Have you got written confirmation that the burseries won't be affected by you earning?

RosesAndHellebores · 03/05/2021 12:05

Actually the op makes a good point and one I agree with. As a society we are churning out far too many well qualified 18 year olds who happen also to be well educated.

That sums up what we paid for actually.

Jumpalicious · 03/05/2021 12:13

Quoting OP “I don’t believe they are musical prodigies by any stretch but the opportunity to develop their musical interests in an environment that encourages this is a big plus in my eye. “

Actually, why the hell not. This is an anonymous place. Your kids ARE clearly talented, and way exceeding most children in the uk. Own it.

Assuming the private school IS going to support their talent, I would take the private school places. Your kids only have one childhood.

Have a plan B. If the bursaries are removed, which they may be, then what happens? As a teacher, it may be you can do more to earn more? Can the second house (current pension pot) not be used for fees?. Re pensions, people plan for a retirement that doesn’t necessarily happen. Elderly folk sat at home with big pensions they can’t spend versus children having a fulfilling teenage life.

Op asked for list of pros. What you’ve received is a lot of personal anecdata - both good and bad. Op, all you can and must do is masses of research into the school. Leavers destinations (to music colleges if this is your focus), research on the 11+ forum and here into what parents say about life at the school... more anecdotes of course, but gives a fuller picture. Visit school. Talk to teachers. Organise interview with the head. I’m sure you have done all that already. So the list has to come from your research.

My personal view, scary to be faced with prospect of big fees, but if the school suits the child, then very much worth it - especially given child not having great experience in state.

NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom · 03/05/2021 12:15

@PegPeople

Have you had chance to consider some of the very relevant points that people have made yet, such as

Do your children all want to move?
What happens if one loses their bursary?
Have you got written confirmation that the burseries won't be affected by you earning?

  • Yes they are all very keen to move
  • the bursary was given as a package deal. If one loses it they’d all lose it
  • I don’t have written confirmation, no, but the person at the bursary company assured me it wouldn’t. We will be getting confirmation of this from the school after the bank holiday.
OP posts:
zingally · 03/05/2021 12:43

The thing is, a bright, hardworking child, who is well-supported by interested, supportive parents, will do well anywhere.

From my experience, the only time a private education makes any difference in the long term, is if you really plump up for the absolute best of the best. Those are the "public schools" and the half-dozen prep schools that feed directly into them. And in the case of those schools, you are buying into a social class, and not necessarily getting any better education than a bright, sensible child would get elsewhere.
Unless you are going for those schools, once your child gets to university, that's the advantage gone. They are then on the same courses, getting the same experiences as those kids who went to state schools.

The fact that your child went to "local private school in large town/city" becomes utterly meaningless when they are after that first job after uni. UNLESS it's one of the "famous" schools.

NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom · 03/05/2021 12:51

@zingally I’m certainly not wanting to send them for social connections or name dropping.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 03/05/2021 12:58

Well, wait until you have everything in writing and look through it with a fine tooth comb.
The actual school offer and bursary offer usually comes direct from the school as your agreement is with the school, not the bursary company.

Given bursaries are means-tested by their very nature, it is usual for the financial position to be reassessed every year and quite a lot of documentation to be needed. It is very unusual (and I’ve never heard of it) for the bursary element to not be changeable if circumstances change, although scholarships wouldn’t be. So I would check it is very clearly expressed in writing int eras that couldn’t then be reinterpreted.

You can understand why bursaries are subject to change when means change can’t you Op? Other parents pay full fees and effectively subsidise those on bursaries. That’s fine when I come remains low, but if a family on a bursary found their income rose to that of full fee paying parents, you can see why those full fee payers could feel disgruntled to know they were subsidising others in a similar or better off position.

Schools claim charitable status partly based on giving of bursaries and all of it has to be transparent and means tested, so what you’re suggesting is extremely unusual and doesn’t fit with the whole spirit of bursaries. As has been mentioned, the standard bursary documentation states that bursaries are subject to change and not compatible with owning second properties or incomes above a certain level etc.

The whole timescale if this is odd too. You say you have been given 14 days to decide, but you haven’t actually got the bursary offer in writing. The whole setup sounds very unusual, so do be extra careful before accepting anything and know that the situation you find yourself in isn’t the norm or the way the school seem to be operating in isn’t the norm. This should raise some concerns in your ind that make you do more through checks.

Whatever the documentation says, I would email the school and bursary company to confirm that the bursary is not subject to change and across how many years, regardless of your family financial circumstances. Pinning it down like this might reveal it isn’t quite what you think...and better to know now than later. I have known families find their bursary halved when circumstances changed a small amount...and the children had to leave the school.

If I was another family considering this particular school, the details you report here about your bursary would certainly out me off. Bursaries absolutely are a good thing when they enable families who have made all the possible sacrifices that can be expected (both parents working, using equity in property and not building assets or investments but using the funds for fees) to attend the school, that would have been impossible in other circumstances. But they cannot be used to draw families in at a cheaper price, just to fill places and boost fee revenue by some amount, on a non-means tested basis. The auditors from the charity commission would need to see that bursary policy was applied properly, and what you’re suggesting has been offered to you, doesn’t really do this. This is why I think the school is either dubious in its offer and in all liklihood not in a strong financial position, or that you’ve actually misunderstood the offer.

It is true that some schools set a fairly high income level as a cut off for bursaries and it certainly rises when more than one child will attend and fees need to be found. It can certainly exceed £100k, but is on a sliding scale and often income has to be below £30k for a full bursary . By the time someone is approaching £100k, you’d be looking at very small bursaries and always the mention that if income rises or circumstances change, the bursary is subject to review.

Op, aren’t you surprised yourself at the idea the bursary won’t change at all if your income rises?

shallIswim · 03/05/2021 13:05

@zingally

The thing is, a bright, hardworking child, who is well-supported by interested, supportive parents, will do well anywhere.

From my experience, the only time a private education makes any difference in the long term, is if you really plump up for the absolute best of the best. Those are the "public schools" and the half-dozen prep schools that feed directly into them. And in the case of those schools, you are buying into a social class, and not necessarily getting any better education than a bright, sensible child would get elsewhere.
Unless you are going for those schools, once your child gets to university, that's the advantage gone. They are then on the same courses, getting the same experiences as those kids who went to state schools.

The fact that your child went to "local private school in large town/city" becomes utterly meaningless when they are after that first job after uni. UNLESS it's one of the "famous" schools.

The others who benefit are those in the middle. The average ones. It lifts them. Friends who have paid for their children's education are thankfully honest in their admission that 'x would be lost' or 'y needs a little more support'. Of course that doesn't apply to the super selective 'top' public schools; those kids would never get in!
paralysedbyinertia · 03/05/2021 13:08

The others who benefit are those in the middle. The average ones. It lifts them.

I do agree with this. I can see that a kid of average ability and/or low confidence and/or poor work ethic would probably benefit significantly from what many private schools have to offer. In that situation, it's probably a good investment.

The kids who are going to do well in any environment just don't need it.

TatianaBis · 03/05/2021 13:17

You seem to be very dismissive of my children’s musical ability and to suggest that their music teacher is poor because she doesn’t have her own studio is equally as rude.

Not my intention. If anything, as your kids seem keen, just giving you the heads up.

From someone who's been involved in music all their life, and has a professional musician parent - it is not rude, but simply a well known fact in the musical world, that schools do not attract the best instrumental teachers.

A good teacher wants talented, committed students and to be able to attract those students from far and wide. And they want to be able to teach on their own terms, not merely fitted into the school curriculum.

In actual fact, I'm supportive of your choice of private school, particularly wrt the music.

WombatChocolate · 03/05/2021 13:22

Not to make this about private/state, but I just don’t agree that bright children do well anywhere, even with interested parents.

Being in a good state or good private school does make a difference to being in a crap one.

Yes, a bright child with interested parents will reach a certain minimum standard by dint of their own intelligence and parental support. But that level is unlikely to be a full sweep of L9 at GCSE or full weep if A* grades or the very best uni course at the very best uni. And those things might be achievable at a really good school which knows how to help and push children towards those things.

As an example, a large number of schools never send anyone to Oxbridge. They have no experience of it, no staff with experience of it and just aren’t interested and sometimes actively opposed to the idea. The extremely bright child who could have got there with support, is very unlikely to apply against school advice and get a place, but at the right school (which could be state or independent) could find their way there.

The pretty bright child in a fairly crap school with limited number of high ability students and a rapidly changing staff which means multiple supply teachers over the course of an exam course, might find themselves with a level 5/6 when somewhere else they could have been pushed to the 8/9. It does make a difference. If you say that a decent pass at any level is all the same, and that child with a 6 has done well enough, well you might decide the school doesn’t matter. But when kids apply to uni and jobs, for the most competitive courses and jobs, people DO look at how many top grades have been achieved and the child without them might be binned.

Children in some schools are told to pick GCSEs and A Levels they really like as the only criteria for choosing. They then find that doors have closed to them because their subjects are not as valued as others ...but they didn’t know that when choosing. Other schools (and it’s not just independnetn) are carefully helping children towards the courses that will keep doors open.

Dobbyisahouseelf · 03/05/2021 13:23

My DD is at a private school and has been throughout her education.

For me it was:
Great teachers, and if not they don't tend to last long (many great teachers in state too).
Small classes, which means the teacher has the time to explain something if your child doesn't fully grasp what is being taught.
Excellent sports facilities, Drama, Music and Arts.
I like the fact that my DD has compulsory sport even in sixth form. She has come away from competitive sports but still plays social netball, tennis or fun things like ultimate Frisbee. Range of sport to suit different girls.
Clubs after school which most are included in the fees, only extra if they have a specialist coach come in (such as kick boxing).
Very hot on manners and come down hard on disruptive behaviour so no lost time in the classroom.
Instills confidence as everyone is encouraged to fully participate in lessons and the bigger characters are not allowed to take over.

Pastoral care is very good at our school.

To be honest you will get a lot of this from a decent state school but small classes and good sport facilities and time in the curriculum for the Arts was important.

NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom · 03/05/2021 13:23

@WombatChocolate We DO have the scholarship and bursary offer in writing - it’s just that we want confirmation in writing that the offer won’t change when I get a full time job. It was made very clear to the school and bursary company that the only way that we could afford to pay any sort of fees is if I was working full time as a teacher. We have both properties on interest only mortgages so the other reason we bought the buy to let one this year was as a sort of endowment/repayment vehicle for paying off the mortgage on our home at the end of the term. So we don’t have loads of equity and we are not currently repaying either mortgage.
My youngest two, I have long suspected additional needs - ADHD for my youngest and ASD for my middle daughter. This school is very well regarded for its SEN support and pastoral excellence. The much smaller class sizes will benefit them both so much.

OP posts:
lboogy · 03/05/2021 13:25

I can't believe you can afford private school on an income of 130k for 3 kids. That's the real shocker for me. I'll be looking into it as an option since it appears they are willing to subsidise wealthy families