Disagreement with DH over DD staying with boyfriend

[laughinggasssing]

Disagreement with DH tonight over a possible future situation. Who’s BU?
DD has had a boyfriend for a year. They met right before first lockdown and obviously have had longish periods of not seeing each other, but always spoke every day, and are now meeting each other a lot more. She’s 15, year 10, Sept birthday. He’s 15, year 10, Oct birthday. Same school.
He seems very nice. He’s polite and she tells me he’s respectful and doesn’t pressure her to do things she’s not comfortable with. We’ve all met his parents and they’re lovely and his mum and I are on a similar wavelength about parenting. It’s all good.
His parents are American and when travel is allowed they really want to go and see family. Their plan is to go for 5 weeks in summer. Boyfriend and his older brother and sister (19 and 21) don’t want to stay for that long so the plan is that the three of them travel home after 3 weeks and boyfriend stays at home in England with older siblings for 2 weeks.

DD was chatting over dinner tonight and was very excited as she plans to spend lots of time there over the summer and apparently she will also be staying overnight. DH (usually very chilled chap) just told her no way and so now she’s sulking. Personally I feel they’d be a month or 2 away from 16, in a long and committed relationship and (crucially) if they’re going to have sex then they will and they’ll just have sex in the daytime! I’d rather talk to her about consent, make sure she feels safe and not pressured and has birth control if needed. DH seems to think I’m hopelessly lax as “it’s illegal” and it sounds like I’m encouraging it. I’m not delighted, but I’m also pragmatic.
Am I being foolish? DH has just said I’m prioritising my good relationship with DD over parenting her appropriately in this situation and it stings a little....

I agree with your dh. I have found this thread helpful actually my dds approaching this stage.

Op parenting style sounds like that of a friend of mine - particularly the concerns that parenting the child will “affect her relationship” with her. My friends dd has in the last few days done something unpleasant and frankly criminal to her lovely friend - still mum backing her dd to the hilt to remain cool fun mum causing great upset to others and frankly displaying a disturbing lack of moral guidance for the 15 year old. Disastrous outcome.

DH and I are not really in agreement on this issue. DD started her sex life with her now ex BF at 14 nearly 15 - we are in France where 15 is the legal age.

She didn't tell me for 3 months, and the night it happened she was the only one of her friends who didn't get to stay over, so that she wouldn't feel under pressure to have sex with BF as he was also staying over. I went to pick her up (from an hour away) at 1 am. I was immensely upset, but mostly because she'd proved DH right and they hadn't used a condom.

We have 3 teen DDs who are very close in age. DH's attitude to this is that he doesn't want a passing parade of boys at his table for Sunday breakfast. And that unless we, as a family, are ready to accept that the BF is invited to all family events then they are not serious enough about the relationship for them to be welcome to stay over.

Taken from that perspective I agree with him to be honest. I'm happy to have a houseful of people, but not so keen to see people at breakfast.

My parents didn't want to know what was going on, and above all didn't want to be confronted with it. So I kept my bag in my room, and I joined BF in his overnight. But I don't think I had sex in my parents house until I was over 18.

I'm with your DH on this.
Your DD will still be a child and you need to parent her as such, for all reasons already mentioned.

But no, it won't stop them having sex during the day if they really want to,so yes, contraception needs to be considered.

The teens around here all seem to wait for their 16th birthday before they have sex, though - it most be something to do with our area Sex-Ed or something- the summer after GCSE's is when lots of sex seems to happen for some reason

Being fuddy-duddy parents we don't allow sleep overs until 18, and on one occasion said no even though they were 19 because the girls family were very strict religious types. they were desperately trying to convert DS and would have been pushing them into marriage the year he finished uni

I am under no illusion that daytime sex doesn't happen happen when I'm at work though.

I think you need to put the boundaries in place now before your DD gets big ideas about spending whole weeks at her boyfriends while his parents are away.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

If I had a 15 year old son with a 15 year old girlfriend and it was a stable relationship I'd not allow her to stay overnight.

Under 16 girls cannot consent to sexual intercourse. If I let her stay I'd be making my son a rapist.

No.

CHILDREN under 16 cannot consent. Why would your 15 year old son be the rapist? In fact, neither child would be a rapist in these circumstances, but both children would be equally at risk of emotional harm caused by underage sex.

I also agree with your DH, I think it is allowing the relationship to become much too serious too soon, I managed to negotiate the teenage years without my DS staying overnight at his GF's house .... the one time he did (& he was older than your DD & her BF) it was made very clear that he slept in the spare room.

I know some couples get together very young, but it seems far too young to be encouraging 'serious' relationships.

And I agree with the PP about a stream of different boys (or girls) at breakfast, a friend of mine decided to be super cool and allow her DD to have overnight boyfriends - once you've allowed it how do you then say 'only serious relationships' - what's considered 'serious'?

Sex or not, I wouldn't want my 15 year old staying overnight in a house with a 19 and 21 year old, and whoever else they bring into the house (parties etc).

I loved staying at my boyfriend's when his parents were away. I was asked to look after their dog rather than kennels as I was on holiday from VI form and bf was working. My parents did not approve. I was older, 17 or 18 but my parents treated me like a 14 year old.

I don't think we had any more sex but we had fun cooking and 'playing house' and of course taking the dog for walks.

There is a lot of time between now and then, I think you need to speak to the other parents and to the older teens in the other family, they are going to be in a possibly difficult situation with regards to under 16s.

I think there’s quite a leap between 15 and 17 though

I’m early 20s and had sex at her age. Looking back, I do regret it for many of the reasons mentioned here.

Definitely felt a tiny bit pressured in the moment, as in, it was the next logical step. It was a badge of honour almost. I never really considered that I could just wait until I felt 100% ready. He was my age and we were together for 3.5 years. It was probably the most intense relationship of my life - both of us couldn’t handle the emotional impact as teens. It really impacted my a-levels - whenever we would argue or disagree I just couldn’t focus on revision and he would consume my mind ! Very dramatic

Some of my friends waited until uni and as a result, their first dating experiences were generally a lot more level headed than mine. I started uni feeling heartbroken- honestly what a waste of my best years!

I also agree with others that by letting her stay over, you don’t know what could potentially go wrong in terms of the older siblings inviting people over that don’t have her best interests at heart etc. His siblings don’t care about your daughter and you shouldn’t entrust them to be the responsible adults. It would actually be better for the parents to be at home if she wanted to stay overnight.

I agree with your DH. 15 and 16 are too young to be "playing house" - that's the danger part I think, rather than the sex.

Living together with none of the pressures that it actually involves might entice them into being lax with contraception, as it would be a motivation to force it into a permanent situation.

You need to be setting some kind of boundaries until 18, at least.

I would definitely talk to his mum about it as you seem to have a good relationship. My DS and his girlfriend (17&18, and together for almost 3 years) wanted to have a sleep over when her family went away. Her mum contacted me, and we discussed and agreed what we were both happy with, and they were given a consistent message. We knew they were probably (certainly) already having sex, but this gave us another perfect opportunity to have a discussion about consent/contraception etc. I would previously have said no, but now am of the view that if they're going to have sex in a bush, I'd rather they did it where they were safe.

I wouldn’t allow this at 15. If you allow sleepovers in an adult-free house then you’re encouraging underage sex. Practically living together heightens the pressure and takes their relationship to a whole new level. They seem emotionally immature to cope with this.

I would worry that if your DD feels pressured, falls pregnant or they break up after having sex then her mental health will decline. She wouldn’t be able to enjoy her last year of secondary school and do well in her exams.

I stayed over at a guy’s house and said no to him in my first year of sixth form. I was a young 16 and he was 18. A couple of months later, my drink was spiked and my virginity was forced from me. The brutality and shame traumatised me for years and years.

I also agree with your DH, 15 is too young to be having overnight stays. I have 3 teenage girls and was pretty (I think) liberal about sex with my oldest.

I was ok about my dd having her boyfriend to stay when she was 17 (lower sixth, october birthday), but I wouldn't let my now 16 year old dd do it yet. They're not emotionally ready imo.

re sex, I think the best you can do is talk to your dd about it, to make sure she is mature enough to have sex, understands all the issues, and has protection. My dd had a very sensible conversation with me.

Yeah, I think it is mostly about the sibling supervision. If the two of them had sex overnight in your house, then you might pick up on whether one or other of them was distressed or unhappy. Sibling supervision might not be so sensitive....

I would be concerned about the parents not being there.

With just older siblings - both over 18 - there could be a more laissez faire attitude in the house which isn't great especially with two 15-yr olds who have been stuck in lockdown for a year & are finally free!!!

Maybe during the day but back at night with a late-ish curfew? Stay-overs start when the parents return.

(I'm saying this as staying over at a friend's house, parents away, her older boyfriend & his mate, led to me being sexually assaulted at 13 by the older boyfriend's mate - so I might be projecting a bit here....)

Thanks everyone. This was enlightening. I can't respond to all but I've read and considered everything. Some excellent points made. I think I've been too focused on keeping lines of communication open, having frank discussions with her about consent and contraception and trying not to stigmatise sex that I missed out on some critical points.

• staying over is too soon emotionally and could push the relationship faster than it needs to
• sibling supervision likely to be inadequate. If alcohol involved I want DD to be able to come home to a safe space.
• before his parents go away I need to talk with them and ensure his siblings have been briefed.

This could all be very hypothetical. DD is very clear that things are moving slowly and she's a bit anxious about it all. One of the reasons she likes him is that he's apparently much less pushy than a lot of the boys she knows or sees her friends dating. For example even during long lockdown she wasn't ever asked for pictures as she'd made her stance clear at the beginning and he hasn't ever tried to push it (sadly this makes him unique amongst all the boys her friends are dating. Some of the stories she tells are terrifying....)
They're both nice kids and I think I need to be a bit more careful that I don't let this lull me into thinking they're more mature than they are.

This is all planned for Aug so we've got time - heck, they might not even be together!
Thanks everyone.

'They're going to be doing XYZ anyway, so I'd rather provide them with a safe space to do so.'
I have never understood this attitude. It suggests the parent has effectively given up on defining boundaries around whichever particular subject this refers to, rather than laying down some boundaries.
I have never known the outcome of this type of parenting to be that the child refrains from said activity either.
I have known parents take this same attitude towards various activities their children choose to partake in. Parents choose to be permissive or condoning of this, in order to provide child with safe space as well as believing they can control it from escalating by supervising closely, under their roof.
It always escalates.
As a parent, you have removed any boundaries and since children are designed to push boundaries, where will you set the next one?
For the parents who permit their children to partake in adult activities, whether that be sex, drinking, smoking or anything adult, did your child decide it wasn't really for them by themselves? Or did they just carry on once they knew it was permitted?
In my observations, once you have agreed to allow your DD to stay overnight unsupervised with her BF, against the wishes of your DH, you will find it exceptionally difficult to pull back from that at a later date and reinforce the boundary that you are effectively trampling over now, as well as sending your DD the message that when it comes to seeking the permission of her parents, it is you she will go to for that permission, and you will be the one who gives/denies permission, if you dont have a United front with your DH now.
Will you be expecting your DH to support you when it gets out of hand?

You know I was always of the opinion that you create a safe space for your children and if they're going to do it anyways you may as well help them to be safe and protected.

But after reading this thread I have completely changed my opinion, I never thought of the emotional ramifications for them and also by providing them a safe space you are basically giving them permission and as one pp said...where does it then stop? If you give them an inch how do you stop them then taking a mile?

I'm with your DH. They're both very young. Sanctioning overnight stays is not appropriate at this age. Talking about consent and protection is good, but there have to be some boundaries.

@Hankunamatata

There is a big difference though between allowing dd to be at bf house during the day to sanctioning over night sleep over. It's a bit like saying yeah go ahead and have sex, we are cool with that.

I know they will do it regardless but I can kind of see dh point by not giving it the parent seal of approval

I agree.

@Orangebug

To me, there is a huge difference between letting a nearly 16yo boyfriend sleep over at your house in the spare room / on the sofa and turning a blind eye to the fact that he might sneak into her room in the night, and letting her staying overnight at his house with no adults present (only older siblings).

To be honest I'm really surprised that you say you wouldn't allow the first (is that right? Or have I misunderstood?) but you would allow the second?? That doesn't make sense to be at all!

And if the girl doesn't want the boy sneaking into her room in the middle of the night expecting sex from her?

How is she going to feel able to effectively stand her ground in the face of pressure from him and her own parents?

How is she going to feel able to say "I know everyone is expecting me to have sex because of my age but I'm not ready/comfortable or don't want to" when her own parents are setting that expectation and pushing it too?

If the nice boy sexually assaults her because his parents told him sex is consensual as long as she's not shouting no repeatedly, or that there's no such thing as rape in a relationship, is she going to feel able to confide in the parents who pushed her into that situation or turned a blind eye to it?

There are regularly threads on here of women seeking support after rape where posters offer up disturbing interpretations of "consent" . You don't know the nice boy hasn't been given the same guidance.

Besides which, she is a child. Even at 18 she is not fully developed mentally or emotionally. Recognising complex emotions and differentiating between feeling she ought to be ready and actually being ready (for one example) is difficult as an adult.

All the black and white conversations about consent with her mum in the cold light of day when no emotions are involved won't help her navigate the complex realities of actually being in such a situation, or magically equip a child to extract herself from a manipulative, coercive or grooming situation - especially if it's with someone she trusts and never expected to betray her trust by disregarding her consent.

DS and his GF started dating when they were 17. Her Dad was like this and there were no overnight stays until she was 18. DS and his GF chose to hang round our house far more than her parents house. I had a chat about contraception even before DS had a GF.

His first ever date was with an 18 year old when he was 16. They hadn’t realised the age gap so had one date only. She was horrified when she realised how young he was. They went Dutch on that one and only date and DS got kudos at school for dating an actual woman who had asked him out.

Apart from underage and consent issues at that age a year or two can make a huge difference in emotional maturity levels. At 15 it would be a big no from me.

I also talked about consent and that you never forget who you first have sex with and that over the years I have met people who very much regret who they slept with first time.

It's depressing how many people hadn't considered that just because a child is physically developed enough to have sex does not mean they are mentally or emotionally equipped to cope with such situations or relationships.

We don't marry girls off to start having babies as soon as they start menstruating, because we manage to recognise how damaging and twisted that would be.

Regardless of the series of arbitrary ages our legal systems offers us particular rights and responsibilities, humans do not reach maturity until around the age of 25.

15 and 16 and 17 year olds are still children by a wide margin. Doesn't matter how superficially mature they may seem, they're not.

There is another aspect to the 'they will do it during the day so you might as well let them sleep together' argument
Yes they might do it during the day but if forced to be creative and only use pockets of unsupervised time they won't be able to do it very often. The less they have sex = the less chance of teen pregnancy for one thing and also the lesser chance that one of them will start pushing for a greater variety of sexual acts. If they can only manage it once a week when mum is at her spin class they are likely to be content with whatever they can get, but if they get to sleep all night uninterrupted together regularly there is more chance that one of them let's face it the boy will start thinking about trying this or that seen in porn or talked about with his mates and the sexual relationship will move faster than it needs to.
The argument is the same for smoking or drinking or any substances at all. If I allow my kid to do whatever under my roof then I'm green lighting the activity for whenever he wants to do it. If I accept that he's doing it but minimise his opportunities by not allowing it in the house then he's much less likely to come a cropper