What makes kids exclude other kids?

[garnierfruit]

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

I think the reason so many people have a problem with SonnyWinds list is that while musing why are kids excluded she focused 100% on what was wrong with the excluded child, and didn't give any thought at all as to why the other kids were being unpleasant. If this is her approach to kids in her classroom it is problematic.
I'm also really surprised that the list is resonating with so many people. I think we have all come across people excluded for being different or an 'easy target' but IME just as often there is no obvious reason. A child in my class was bullied mercilessly in primary school because the Queen bee didn't like her. That's it. None of the things on that list. The rest of us kept our heads down because we didn't want to be on the receiving end. I still feel shame to this day that I didn't do more to stick up for her.

@PlayMemory I agree with you. Primitive survival of the fittest, whoever is in the ‘in’ crows isn’t going to be left outside the cave to be eaten!! Once you’re in with the popular kids, you’re ‘safe’...

@Flywheel she was very obviously just exampling the reasons she had been given by children for why others had been excluded, not agreeing with them or offering them as her own opinion or reason. Cannot believe so many people think she is offering these up as ‘reasons’ why children are excluded.

@Lifeaintalwaysempty, but the list still doesn't ring true for me. There isn't always an obvious reason. At least some focus needs to be on those doing the excluding. Starting from the position that there is something wrong with the excluded child is problematic, although sometimes, perhaps there is something the child can do to help themselves (e.g. personal hygiene)

@SonnyWinds Your list is spot on. I’ve heard it all and more from years of working in schools.

Teenagers are a horrible lot basically, full of insecurities, trying to impress peers and keep in with the cool crew, and not emotionally recognising the impact of excluding others - and if they do then it’s all a bit embarrassing to try and back-track.
My 14 yr old is also a ‘victim/casualty’ of this, failing to see that her bestie has drifted away until she was really stung by the exclusion from the new group.

A friend tells me her daughters have found the same even into University - the joy of parenting!

@flywheel are you just being obtuse here? She was giving a list of reasons In her experience as a teacher why other children had excluded a child. The thread asks Why do KIDS exclude other kids

They are not her thoughts, not did she say she agreed with them. Is it really that hard to grasp? It’s been explained several times in the thread and people are still piling in to post nasty posts to Sonny. Says it all

I think the reason so many people have a problem with SonnyWinds list is that while musing why are kids excluded she focused 100% on what was wrong with the excluded child, and didn't give any thought at all as to why the other kids were being unpleasant.

The question was "what makes kids exclude other kids?" and she answered it, based on the reasons that would be given by the children she's taught. I thought it was obvious that she wasn't saying these "reasons" make it acceptable or that the bullies aren't at fault. But she answered the question.

To be honest, difficult as it was to read, I thought it was a lot more useful than those who insist it's always down to jealousy, or a child being an inherently terrible person. If we don't understand the children's thought processes, how can we teach them better ones?

We're talking children here, not adults.

[quote AnnaSW1]@GreyhoundG1rl what's your question? Do you need a dictionary to look that up? [/quote]
Wtf?

When she was at her dads last weekend he organised a play date with another lovely girl in her class, I ask why don't you play with her at school, her response - 'oh she's weird'.

Your ability to absolutely gloss over your DD being the excluder pretty much sums up the answer to your thread.

It’s only ever a problem when it’s one’s own child being excluded. When they’re the excluder, it’s - seemingly - just not even on the radar.

🤷🏻‍♀️

@DrSbaitso whilst you’re right & I agree, it’s clearly viewed through the teacher’s (the writer’s) lens too.

The way any teacher views the ‘misfits’ is in my experience the key. It’s not easy but children know when a teacher is in their corner or otherwise...

@SaturdayRocks

When she was at her dads last weekend he organised a play date with another lovely girl in her class, I ask why don't you play with her at school, her response - 'oh she's weird'.

Your ability to absolutely gloss over your DD being the excluder pretty much sums up the answer to your thread.

It’s only ever a problem when it’s one’s own child being excluded. When they’re the excluder, it’s - seemingly - just not even on the radar.

🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes, this. Do you not see the irony here, op?

Because kids are frequently arseholes with no sensitivity or acceptance of other, despite a thousand memes to tell us otherwise?

@3scape

Because kids are frequently arseholes with no sensitivity or acceptance of other, despite a thousand memes to tell us otherwise?

Spot on

Hey all,
Back again to clarify a few things.

1. I obviously do not think those reasons are logical or fair or kind or acceptable - but they're true.
2. OP did not ask what makes children attack another child. She asked why they exclude a child that they are friends with on a regular basis. There's a world of difference between a child who is always disliked and pushed out and a child who is treated in a "hot and cold" fashion.
3. As a teacher, I can step in if there's bullying or mean actions or words. I can't step in and force students to like each other. I can't make children feel a certain way. I do not have magical powers. It's the same at work, your boss or HR can step in if you're being harassed but they can't make your colleagues like you or hang out with you.
4. I focused on the victim because that's what you as a parent have control over. If your child smells then you can fix that. You cannot fix problems with other people's children so there's no point focusing on what's "wrong" with them. I cannot tell you how many students are excluded because of things their parents refuse to change - if your child is not wearing deodorant by Y7 then they smell and will be excluded, if they have a monobrow "but they're still a baby really" then they will be excluded and if they have a moustache "but he's only in Y7 so he's too little to shave" then he will be excluded.
5. Excluding in a "hot and cold" way from a group is completely cyclical and targets every member at some point. You think it's only your child because they'll come home and say "I was excluded by my friends today" but they'll never say to you "I excluded a girl in my friendship group today".
6. When I said "getting people into trouble" I don't mean telling on them - I mean writing rude words in someone else's book so they get the blame or knowing their phone is switched on and calling them so their phone gets confiscated in class.
7. Boys do this as much as girls do - but boys aren't allowed to cry or express their feelings so they either act out in anger or bottle up their insecurities and kill themselves in their 20s. I'm massively aiming this comment at the mothers of boys who are not allowed to wear deodorant, get a "cool" haircut, shave or join a gym.
8. Being excluded is a horrible feeling and can cause issues that they'll carry for the rest of their life. Telling OP that there's nothing at all she could do and that her daughter is an entirely flawless victim so she should reflect and see if there's anything she can do is condemning her daughter to a shit load of pain and suffering.

@GreenSlide

I think a lot of it comes from some kids being more socially mature than other kids. The 'childish' ones - the ones who aren't allowed to play Fortnite, who have a 7pm bedtime, who don't realise not to admit to their friends that they sleep with a teddy bear, who still get taken to soft play at weekends age 8, that sort of thing, they're at risk of being picked on a bit.

@GreenSlide I do agree with this. There does seem to be a two tier thing going on in my DCs class. The more mature ones who are allowed to stay up til whatever time, unsupervised access to online gaming, watch movies with 15/18 ratings and then those like you say who are still happy enough at the play park, soft play or animal park.

I do think sometimes it boils down to jealousy plain and simple. Jealous that a kid in the class is doing well academically, jealous they are good at football or gymnastics, jealous of their home life.

I think this is often the crux of the problem.

Most of us got it the first time, Sonny
The comprehension levels on here sometimes are extremely suspect.

@GreyhoundG1rl

Most of us got it the first time, Sonny The comprehension levels on here sometimes are extremely suspect.

I think a lot of people comprehend posts like that perfectly well - they just want an excuse to have a bitch about someone. for Sonny.

Excluding in a "hot and cold" way from a group is completely cyclical and targets every member at some point. You think it's only your child because they'll come home and say "I was excluded by my friends today" but they'll never say to you "I excluded a girl in my friendship group today".

This is really important to note too. Plenty of kids can dish it out - and do so on the regular - but can't take it in return.

@SonnyWinds - anyone with an ounce of reading comprehension skills understood exactly what you were getting at.

Absolutely amazed that some people needed the follow up explanation.

This is all very sad reading.
DD had this. Before that it was all "BFF" !!!!
Other girls (and boys) went along with it to keep 'in with the (sheep) crowd". It gives them power and a sense of "well, if we pick on her, it won't be me"
And take a look at their parents- the apple never falls far from the tree
If some perceived injustice happened to Queen Bee and her "wannabees" mummy would be up at the school, brownie/guide group etc crying.
Yep. Seen it.
😳

@LockedFarAway

1. They smell bad. Can't someone explain this and help support with offering solutions to stop this happening? 2. They talk too much or say weird things. Who decides what's too much or too little talking? And why not say, hey, let everyone else have a turn to talk! And who is the 'were' police, really? Don't we have freedom of speech in this country? 3. They're nasty and say nasty things. So should be pulled up about it, not allowed to get away with it. Given a chance to turn it around with the full knowledge that if they don't, the consequence will be no friends? 4. Their parents are invasive/controlling They can't help who their parents are! What about commiserating with them, and inviting them to your house, not going to theirs? 5. They can't keep secrets So be friends but don't share secrets with them. Tell them why, so they can turn it around if they want to be in the know! 6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies). Pull them up about it each time, and explain how that's not cool, give them a chance to stop being such a prick or they'll end up with no friends. But then again, isn't all fair in love and war? Just because you fancy a boy doesn't mean she can't as well! 7. They eat weird food Who is the self appointed food police? 8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair. What happened to freedom of choice and being your own person? 9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot. So why not see it as she has good taste wanting to be around you and include her? 10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. Then explain clearly, people usually understand number limitations 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. So if someone explains it to her, maybe she will have agency in it and be able to decide: how important is it what people call me? Or is there a way to ask people nicely? And what about people respecting her preference snd actually calling Steph Stephanie since it's her name?! 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. What about tolerating other people and telling them how it impacts on you negatively if it's that bad? 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. Maybe don't get into trouble then you won't get called out on it?! Or maybe see it as they're going to end up being a police officer snd are getting plenty of practice in. Or maybe realise they do it out of fear of being seen as part of the trouble-makers and are desperate to make it clear they're not. What's wrong with being nice to a teacher, who, after all, is a human, doncha know! 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). So how about showing care and compassion for those weaker than us? Isn't that everything that's wrong in society? 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school So then show them! Or find another ways to work around it by, I dunno, old fashioned landline call or arranging to meet the old fashioned way, when you're in person? 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion. So what about sometimes talking about your stuff and sometimes talking about theirs? If you don't have a single thing in common it would naturally fall apart anyway...

Why are you giving a response like this as if she said she advocates for bullying on these grounds? She's explaining the reasons why children/young people exclude others, not saying she agrees with it!

It's from the perspective of the excluders. What part of the list do you actually think is inaccurate?

Sonny's list, whilst making for uncomfortable reading is pretty accurate.

This was the comment that stood out for me Some girls get a feel for the power of choosing who is in and who is out. The following girls does as she says.

This was definitely the case in the group I was in from 11-13. I was then dropped like a brick when I went to a different school the alpha girl didn't get into. There were 6 girls in our group. Two called the shots, I and another girl were middle tier and two others bore the brunt of being regularly excluded for reason that mystified me and scared me in equal measure.

As an older teen I reflected that really I was as much a bully as the two Tier 1 girls. I just didn't want to lose my place in the pecking order. I became very, very anti-bullying and am well known for wading into situations where I see it happening to confront the bully.

One of the Tier 1 bullies died last year as a relatively young woman. I was knocked off centre for several weeks, despite having last spoken to her 30 years ago. I was really surprised to remember so many things she did and led us to do. One of the Tier 3 girls was all over FB singing her praises. It was a very odd experience.

The ‘list’ is interesting. As someone who was bullied in school and in the workplace by another woman, I’m trying to see if some apply to me.
I think it’s all too easy to say that someone has issues at home, which makes the perpetrator the victim.

IMO some people including kids don’t have the ability to mix in groups with people very different to themselves. We often see best friends in primary school reduce contact when they reach secondary school and meet people more like themselves. In primary and in the workplace when people are in smaller groups this is harder to do.

I really don’t know what would help. Working to increase confidence and coping strategies is probably the most beneficial tactic in the long term.

I cannot tell you how many students are excluded because of things their parents refuse to change
This is true. My mum didn’t allow me to shave my armpits or legs because she’d never shaved hers and she believed old wives tales about it making the hair thicker. She didn’t allow me to pluck my eyebrows for the same reason. She didn’t allow me to wash my hair during my period because of old wives tales about it making you ill. She didn’t buy me makeup or deodorant or tampons because she’d never used them herself and found them unnecessary. All of these things made me stand out and caused bullying. I was about 15 before I found the confidence to do those things behind her back, and I was 18 before I was confident enough to do them openly and tell her I didn’t care what she thought.

My Dad was even worse - he didn’t allow me to have anything to do with boys. I guess he was afraid I’d get pregnant but the main outcome was that I was ostracised by other teens because of it. Ironically I was actually interested in boys, I just didn’t dare show it in case my Dad found out and told me off or humiliated me.

@LockedFarAway

1. They smell bad. Can't someone explain this and help support with offering solutions to stop this happening? 2. They talk too much or say weird things. Who decides what's too much or too little talking? And why not say, hey, let everyone else have a turn to talk! And who is the 'were' police, really? Don't we have freedom of speech in this country? 3. They're nasty and say nasty things. So should be pulled up about it, not allowed to get away with it. Given a chance to turn it around with the full knowledge that if they don't, the consequence will be no friends? 4. Their parents are invasive/controlling They can't help who their parents are! What about commiserating with them, and inviting them to your house, not going to theirs? 5. They can't keep secrets So be friends but don't share secrets with them. Tell them why, so they can turn it around if they want to be in the know! 6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies). Pull them up about it each time, and explain how that's not cool, give them a chance to stop being such a prick or they'll end up with no friends. But then again, isn't all fair in love and war? Just because you fancy a boy doesn't mean she can't as well! 7. They eat weird food Who is the self appointed food police? 8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair. What happened to freedom of choice and being your own person? 9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot. So why not see it as she has good taste wanting to be around you and include her? 10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. Then explain clearly, people usually understand number limitations 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. So if someone explains it to her, maybe she will have agency in it and be able to decide: how important is it what people call me? Or is there a way to ask people nicely? And what about people respecting her preference snd actually calling Steph Stephanie since it's her name?! 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. What about tolerating other people and telling them how it impacts on you negatively if it's that bad? 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. Maybe don't get into trouble then you won't get called out on it?! Or maybe see it as they're going to end up being a police officer snd are getting plenty of practice in. Or maybe realise they do it out of fear of being seen as part of the trouble-makers and are desperate to make it clear they're not. What's wrong with being nice to a teacher, who, after all, is a human, doncha know! 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). So how about showing care and compassion for those weaker than us? Isn't that everything that's wrong in society? 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school So then show them! Or find another ways to work around it by, I dunno, old fashioned landline call or arranging to meet the old fashioned way, when you're in person? 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion. So what about sometimes talking about your stuff and sometimes talking about theirs? If you don't have a single thing in common it would naturally fall apart anyway...

Who are you replying to? It’s not @SonnyWinds doing these things FFS, these are things she’s witnessed as a teacher. I very much doubt the young girls who have done these things are reading your advice on mumsnet 🙄

For what it’s worth Sonny, I totally agree with you. Anything even slightly out of the ordinary gets pounced upon. Kids brains aren’t fully developed, they don’t have the maturity/empathy/emotional intelligence of (most) adults.

So many poor fools addressing that list as if it was written by a group of bullying children 🤦‍♀️