What makes kids exclude other kids?

[garnierfruit]

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

not enough shirts/tops though to enable frequent/daily change of clothes.

Also just to make myself clear on this point (god, where is an edit button when you need it), I teach rich kids. It's not a case of not being able to afford uniform and then masking with sprays in my school - at least we haven't come across it. But in other schools I've been in that's been a problem, definitely. Like anything it all depends on your cohort.

Not much hope for the human race reading your list. Reminds me of those people on social media who are absolutely horrible and keep exhorting others to 'be kind.' Hilarious and depressing.

'was giving a list of reasons that she has heard from excluders that they have excluded an excludee'

Yes but how ridiculous that the pp was unable to scratch the surface and explain further. For example, 'excluders always have a list of lame excuses for their controlling behaviour but we all know the fault lies with the poor self esteem of the excluder and unfortunately our dc will encounter these people at school. If uncontrolled through poor parenting and poor teaching the excluder will continue to be enabled'

That is what I'd hoped a secondary school teacher would say not just list supposed faults.

@BackforGood which is EXACTLY what I said

SionnachRua Don’t worry I knew what you were saying from your post. It made perfect sense.

Sadly these relatively low level differences highlight even more how difficult it is for a kid from a poorer background to fit into a school in a wealthier area.

Some girls are quite insecure and possessive and will try and exclude someone from the group if they see them as a threat. They want to keep a friend to themselves and so try to get rid of the other girl.

[quote garnierfruit]@BackforGood which is EXACTLY what I said [/quote]
Which bit of BackforGood's post is 'exactly what you said'?

@Skral

Some girls are quite insecure and possessive and will try and exclude someone from the group if they see them as a threat. They want to keep a friend to themselves and so try to get rid of the other girl.

Exactly.

Surely any secondary school teacher knows this.

@GreyhoundG1rl There are almost always at least two sides to any story. Often, a parents will only see it from the side of their dc and not realise there are other factors at play. - that.

@JaniieJones

'was giving a list of reasons that she has heard from excluders that they have excluded an excludee'

Yes but how ridiculous that the pp was unable to scratch the surface and explain further. For example, 'excluders always have a list of lame excuses for their controlling behaviour but we all know the fault lies with the poor self esteem of the excluder and unfortunately our dc will encounter these people at school. If uncontrolled through poor parenting and poor teaching the excluder will continue to be enabled'

That is what I'd hoped a secondary school teacher would say not just list supposed faults.

But I don't agree that it is always the fault of the (perceived) excluder. Sometimes, kids exclude themselves through their own behaviour, as per my post above.

As someone who was excluded at school myself, I don't think treating me as a victim was helpful at all. Blaming it all on other people didn't actually fix the situation for me. It would have been so much better if someone had gently addressed the real causes of the problem with me, and if someone had actually helped me to develop the social skills that I lacked.

@Skral

Some girls are quite insecure and possessive and will try and exclude someone from the group if they see them as a threat. They want to keep a friend to themselves and so try to get rid of the other girl.

Yes, that's true. But sometimes, those insecure, possessive girls will find that their behaviour backfires on them and they end up being excluded themselves because of their controlling behaviour. Do they recognise the part that they have played in creating that situation? All too often, I'm afraid they don't.

@JaniieJones

'was giving a list of reasons that she has heard from excluders that they have excluded an excludee'

Yes but how ridiculous that the pp was unable to scratch the surface and explain further. For example, 'excluders always have a list of lame excuses for their controlling behaviour but we all know the fault lies with the poor self esteem of the excluder and unfortunately our dc will encounter these people at school. If uncontrolled through poor parenting and poor teaching the excluder will continue to be enabled'

That is what I'd hoped a secondary school teacher would say not just list supposed faults.

I do disagree with her later post suggesting that being excluded is often within the child's control - that if the excluder just wore some deodorant it would suddenly all be OK and the excluders would realise what judgemental fools they'd been all along and all hold hands as they skipped off into the sunset. Rather than, for example, find some other "reason" and carry on with their self-protective status game.

But many posters in this thread are acting as if that first post said, "Here is a list of completely valid reasons to exclude another girl which I have come up with myself". Which simply isn't the case. And, to be frank, diverts the conversation away from "What, if anything, can we do about this list of alleged reasons excluders give?" which would be a much more fruitful discussion to have than "I can't believe you think it's OK to exclude a child because she smells, you evil cow!" By all means disagree with what someone has said, but there's no point setting up a straw man.

Schools should have some resonance with the workplace and mentor the skills needed there. You cannot expect children to behave well without guidance, but you should supply organised activities at break time so that there is something fun to do which involves interacting with others for every child. In fact, I thought I had read that some schools are making all break time activities structured ones with adult guidance. There should be free play too, I feel,but every child should have something nice to do. Children need to be taught that excluding is mean. You don't exclude people at work or at church or in sports clubs. It isn't healthy or conducive to social cohesion to need to spend all your free association time with those you relate to best. Home time is ok for picking special friends to see and connect with, but school is not the place for just being yourself.

I really believe that friendship is being seen by some as a competitive kind of thing which demonstrates a talent on your behalf. Being socially popular is being viewed like playing a musical instrument well, being academic and good at sport: probably as attributes which will ensure the kids are rich and successful later on.
Excluding is not like seeing less of someone, it is alienating someone to the extent that they feel unpopular , and that is not a nice thing to do. I don't think calling someone 'weird' is nice or discerning, either. Kids should be brought up to think we are all different and if you like weird in our own way. Othering people is unpleasant.

@garnierfruit I would second PP recommendation to work on your DD's self-esteem and friendship beliefs. And YYYY to the book ]] It really helped DD. I think I gave it to her (I read it first) when she was about 9. Great tips for self-esteem - but also how to react to nasty comments (some one-liners etc).

The message it gave my daughter was so useful and your daughter could probably do with the same message. This girl she is "best friends" with is not a friend is she? She has issues (power/control/stuff at home) that she is playing out on your daughter. You need to teach your daughter not to put up with it. It only gets worse as they get to secondary - lay the foundations for her now.

I was just taught "ignore it - don't give any reaction so they get bored and they'll leave you alone". Wrong advice - victim blaming much!

Anyway, I taught my daughter - "You are worth more than this. If someone makes you feel bad they are not a friend." It wasn't instant. We had a few hiccups. But now she assesses people/friends on their behaviour/morals/actions rather than just being desperate to fit in. The slightly racist/homophobic classmates...left to do their thing (challenged when necessary) . Bitchy unpleasant ones (often the "popular" ones - left to their own devices. She is in a wide, inclusive group who welcomed anyone from any other group if they are being excluded from their tribe. She is 15 now and I am so proud of her.

Get the book.

Oh and for when she hits secondary I also found "Queen Bees and WannaBees" a useful book. It explains a lot of the dynamics - and DD had often found herself the "Torn Bystander" as the bitchy/excluded did her job on someone else - DD hated it but was too scared to speak out. Again - learning that the excluder was not someone you wanted to worry about - you feel far better going with your morals, saying "That is wrong/unkind/stop it" and standing with the excluded than doing nothing. It is a brave step to be able to take though.

There's a difference between saying another child is weird in a private conversation with their mum to excluding her on purpose.

Yes, but they are connected. She told you why she was excluding the other child, and lo and behold, it's one of SonnyWind's reasons!

Why ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer, either from your child or a teacher with experience in this?

Sonny Winds is simply listing what she has observed. I think it's unfair to suggest she is victim blaming and shouldn't be teaching for goodness sake.

The reason some posters may seen shocked by Sonny's list is because the labels appear, by the way the list is expressed, to be adult evaluations, not words kids would use. The label 'weak(' in some way): no child is going to say, " I turned my back on her, Miss, because she is weak". Who decides if the parents are controlling? Surely adults are not in a position to be party to many conversations - breaktime chats - showing a parent is 'controlling'. I don't think kids use the word controlling- it is an adult summarising hearsay, or, maybe, projecting their own judgement of the parents onto the reasons. Is it, anyway, fair to exclude a child because of how their own parents act? Lots of kids have difficult parents, but they often have friends too. This is why the list sounds very final and harsh.

It would be implausibly sad if a student had said, " She smells, Miss. I don't talk to her anymore", without some help being offered to the poor child being described - and if help were being offered, the odour would be a temporary problem only, but something about the list makes it would like these attributes are a key, constant thing about the child, not part of a phase they are going through.

Obviously, as poster highlights above, children with special needs can present as our of the ordinary.
On that list, earlier, I would have expected to see eccentric used to sum up differences which would only be described as 'weird' by narrow-minded peopke,.....and school is supposed to be about broadening the outlook and reference points of learners.

Usually their parents. I actively discouraged my DS not to become too friendly with one child ( although ultimately the child’s behaviour alienated him from most friendship groups) after he told me that the child’s father had allowed them to stand on the backseat of the Range Rover and wave their hands out of the sunroof while driving home from a play date.
It is learned behaviour, children pick up on parents likes and dislikes, their values and how they interact socially. Queen bees create queen bees.

The list doesn't even say, these are the reasons I've heard being given. It says these are the reasons.

' Eat weird food?'. So if a child were vegan, that might be seen as weird?. Or, if they had an allergy and ate homemade stew? Or if they had ASD, and only liked bland carbohydrates, would that be a reason not to be friendly.
Or, basically, children exclude kids due to what their parents put in their lunch box. I don't think the list actually contains actual reasons that have been witnessed. It sounds a ridiculous list. Food is just food, it is never weird, only unfamiliar, and children are not as unintelligent as to actually exclude somebody because of what they put in their mouth.

I think kids send others to Coventry - after once being their mate - or never having been sociable with them, because they are unkind.

'are implying anything about who she is, just because she is defending another poster who has made some valuable contributions to this thread.'

Oh yes very valuable. I wonder if they also think women get harassed because they walk home alone and wear the wrong clothes.

It is never what someone does that is 'wrong'. The list of 'faults' always lies with the excluder, the harasser, the abuser.

Victim blaming at its finest.

When I was 9 the teachers took a girl who was constantly excluded out to the library then staged an ‘intervention’ with the entire class. The school I went to was a very ordinary suburban state primary. The teachers asked “why is no one friends with Girl A?” I still remember the answers from the brazen few who spoke up to this day:
She farts in class.
She wears babyish clothes.
She picks her nose.
She doesn’t know any Take That songs.

The poor kid was moved out of school before the next school year started. I often wonder what became of her. Kids are that simple sometimes.

I was in a friendship foursome in high school and we definitely had a queen bee. She was incredibly manipulative and spiteful, but I didn’t recognise that until I was about 15.

I was excluded quite a lot in my group of school "friends". Turns out the reason was because they were bitches! I have loads of good friends as an adult.

I also had this problem in primary school, most of the friends I did have were boys because of it. The girls just didn't want to know, my face just never 'fit' and it's continued on into adulthood to a small extent whenever I've worked in an office.

I spent a lot of time wondering why, as I know I was a genuinely friendly and kind kid. I got diagnosed with ADHD this year at ther grand old age of 39, and began to understand my past a little more. I was definitely friendly and kind BUT I had a very overactive imagination and could be a bit weird, a bit too talkative and a tad bit too eager to be friends with other kids (I also wasn't particularly 'girly' girl which probably didn't help), and certainly in the last year or so of primary I wasn't as mature as most of the other girls.

The thing is, my DS also has ADHD and similar personality traits to me as a child, but most of his best friends are girls, they love him! So why are these personality traits acceptable in a boy and not in a girl? Or maybe he just has really lovely accepting kids in his class, I've often thought that.

@IncorrigibleTitmouse *When I was 9 the teachers took a girl who was constantly excluded out to the library then staged an ‘intervention’ with the entire class. The school I went to was a very ordinary suburban state primary. The teachers asked “why is no one friends with Girl A?” I still remember the answers from the brazen few who spoke up to this day:
She farts in class.
She wears babyish clothes.
She picks her nose.
She doesn’t know any Take That songs.

The poor kid was moved out of school before the next school year started. I often wonder what became of her. Kids are that simple sometimes.*

Careful! You're about to be abused of "victim blaming" by the women on this thread who think that excluded students are actually entirely perfect and the excluders are all just horrible people because they have abusive and/or divorced parents.

@pinkmagnolias

HowManyToes

You are querying how and why kids think. Of course the adults here don’t agree with the kid’s thought process.

Umm... that’s precisely my point? Of course SonnyWinds doesn’t agree with it, it’s just what she’s observed.