Shouting at kids, want to stop

[Ncbecauseselfloathing]

I know I ABU.

I can’t stop. I don’t know how.

I am traumatising my DD. She is 3 and so wilful and difficult but she is just 3.

Shouting doesn’t work I know (occasionally it does but mostly it doesn’t).

I am at a loss. I feel like I have been lobotomised and just can’t catch a break between 3 year old and the baby. I have it quite easy compared to others.

I asked GP about help for anger management a while ago and it sounds like you basically have to be seriously fucking up your family and SS involved and then you might be sent to parenting classes. I don’t need that, but my reading books and articles isn’t working.

@spittycup

I also recommend the book "When Mum Turned Into A Monster" as an conversation starter where you can apologise for shouting. I sometimes use the "turning into a monster" as a way to describe my escalating crossness in a more fun way.

@PerspicaciousGreen

Thank you for mentioning this! I read this book as a child and have been trying to remember the name. Off to buy it lol

Yay! Toddler, uh, liked it so much that sometimes he ASKS me to turn into a monster and stomp around and growl at him and tell him not to do things ("Grrrr! Are you sitting down, you naughty boy? No! Don't stand up! Roar!"), then to turn back into a mummy and give him cuddles. I find it a bit weird but rationalise it as psychologically positive role playing...

I don’t post much these days but I resonate with your OP so much.

I was just like this, 2 years ago or so, when my DC were 3 and a baby. I found my 3 year old so so hard to manage, and was also having problems with his childcare setting at the time. I would flip and absolutely scream at him, I’m so ashamed now.

I was without a doubt suffering with PND and anxiety. Like you I have always had a short fuse and was a shouty child, but had chilled out a lot as an adult. Kids push your buttons, but if you’re not reacting how you want to, I think it’s worth exploring deeper. I started taking 50g daily Sertraline when my eldest was nearly 4 and it was a game changer, I felt like the old me again. Only then was I able to clearly see that I’d been depressed/suffering post natally, as it had all started just before my baby was born.

I would really recommend exploring that. I was VERY against anti depressants as in my mind I wasn’t depressed, but it saved my relationship with my eldest child who is now 5. I’ve tapered down the medication so I’m currently taking 25mg every other day, and plan on eventually stopping.

I still get cross and impatient, I do still occasionally shout/snap, but it’s not out of my control. I have a really good relationship with my eldest DC now, as much as he can still push my buttons! But I can see clearly now that he is just a child. I can’t believe the expectations I had of his behaviour when he was just 3 and had a baby sibling in the house.

Books wise How To Talk So Little Kids Listen is also excellent and helped me adapt my parenting.

I really really disagree with the posters who are calling you abusive. Not because I think what you're doing is OK and you can just carry on as is, but because I think it's a hugely unhelpful label for you right now. You sound incredibly stressed and like you hate being Shout Mummy and you're asking on here for some help to change. I just think "abusive" is not going to be a remotely helpful thing for you to think about yourself and is just going to make you feel even more terrible without actually helping you to change.

Couple of things have jumped out at me from your posts:

It's great that your daughter has started at nursery. If she's only just started you won't be seeing the benefit yet, but give it a little time and it'll do you good to get a break from each other.

There are lots of medications you can take while breastfeeding. I really think you could do with going back to your GP and asking about it. You might choose not to in the end, but breastfeeding is not an insurmountable barrier.

Your home situation sounds really stressful. Your husband working a lot and not appreciating you. (I can't believe he got a takeaway for just him !!!) And you've got a young baby, you're breastfeeding, you're not sleeping well... I'm not surprised you're finding things hard. I often feel guilty about things like easy food etc, so one technique I use is to set a time limit on it. For the next month (or whatever) I'm just going to pick the easy way out every time, then on X date I'll pick myself up and have another go at doing things "properly". It means I can relax knowing it's not going to be forever and I have a fixed-time free pass to be "lazy".

If you can vocalise your escalating anger, you can be aware yourself of when you're about to tip over the edge. Our son doesn't tantrum in a typical angry way but he just dissolves into loud hysterical tears on a little puddle of desolation on the floor. Sometimes I can sympathise... sometimes it enrages me. To avoid shouting, I say, "I am going to go somewhere else now. When you have finished crying and can tell me using words, come and find me in the kitchen." Then I walk out and seethe somewhere else for a bit. If he follows me crying and I'm still that cross, I go somewhere else. Usually I do end up calming down and going back to him before he finishes crying and finds me, but I do need that breathing space somewhere away from the max-volume howling.

My favourite toddler book is How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen. It's not really aimed at your problems, but you might enjoy it anyway. One thing it does have which is helpful is the "rewind" technique. You say: "Pause mummy! That wasn't very good. Let's try again. Rewind mummy! Ready? And...play mummy!" And then say/do the thing you wish you had. It's a very explicit way of having another go. I can't always stop myself shouting, but I can always apologise and have another go.

This was me 2 months ago. Shouty, irritable and then feeling so guilty. I went to the dr and she sent me for me some blood tests. Turns out I have post partum thyroiditis. Baby is 6 months old. She put me on some meds (propranolol) and it instantly calmed me down. I literally can't get angry!

I second @PerspicaciousGreen suggestion re easy food. I am a big believer in cooking from scratch but there are plenty of times I left overwhelmed and opted for one of the following

M&S pre prepared chicken Kiev and mash potato and carrot/turnip mash . Perfect for adults and toddlers
They also do a good value lasagne tray or fish pie and this with a bag of salad is fine
That’s 2 days when you don’t have meal pressure hanging over you.
Other options are butchers who do nice stir fry’s in sauces or flavoured meats.
Again buy in the prepped veg to go alongside and your toddler will be happy.

Meal times are a stress so you need to make them as easy on you as possible

Can I just add
Bloody full moon arghhhh

One of the kids at pick up yesterday climbed on top of the family car
The mother couldn't get him off

Well done for acknowledging shouting is not the best way forward

Please try if you can to ignore some of the behaviours and reward the good ones
It is so hard - my three year old was so bad this morning I had to leave the room

"She is a typical fussy eater but there is also a history of anemia which means she had low appetite and ....But we are worried about her growth."

Has she actually got a growth issue?
Is she not growing?
Has she been tested for coeliac?
My dd was poor growth fussy eater ASD like behaviour ut of proportion...her brother was already diagnosed ASD at this point so it was assumed same issues...but turned out she is coeliac and after diagnosis and diet change after four a massive change in behaviour
So if poor growth and anaemia ask for coeliac screen from g p a blood test

Agree with other posters not to stress on food for fes weeks
You now thinking about dd perspective so things can change
Also cut back on helping others be a little selfish focus on you dd dh for next 6 months ..just say "I ve got some family stuff on next six months can I come back to you on this later"

Ask gp not for anger management but to check all your usual bloods and counselling sessions if there us lot going on CbT is good

Sorry if I’ve missed it OP - haven’t RTFT but how old is your baby?

I suffered badly with postnatal anxiety and birth trauma after my twins were born and sometimes I would be overcome by absolute rage. I remember once spilling some formula I was making and I just absolutely lost my mind. Luckily the twins were in bed but I threw stuff, shouted and then collapsed in a heap of tears. It was like an out of body experience.

I got treatment after that and it really, really helped. The HV told me that anger is often a sign of untreated postnatal depression / anxiety.

I would go back to your GP to discuss anti-depressants and see if they help. Things stayed out of whack while I was breastfeeding but it got a lot better when I stopped (I was actually pumping, which I despised and it didn’t do my mental health any good).

I second the getting out of the house regularly, it helped me deal with incidents where I might have shouted. There weren’t many moments I think but one or two that I am ashamed of, particularly smacking my DS1 when he pulled my hair hard when I was trying to get him in his care seat. That was when I knew I must never smack at all as I realised I was so angry at his behaviour leading up to the hair pulling as well as the hair pulling that I might have really hurt him if I hadn’t been aware of others around me. I had DF and PIL both telling me to smack him when he was naughty but I knew I would never go there again. I actually told my dad that I would not because I knew I had been so angry that it might not have just been one smack.
Regarding your MIL - I would be putting my foot down hard over what she is doing. It is completely irresponsible to give your DD those tiny little kinder toys with your baby around and your rules should be respected. I laid down the law on when chocolate could be given to mine.
There is no reason why DH couldn’t help out properly with your DD. Not toileting her was very poor. So I’d be telling him that MIL is not coming round in that way. If she tries it again she will be taken home, I couldn’t stand being railroaded like that and I wouldn’t dream of doing it to anyone.

Are you getting enough sleep?

Thank you for further posts and book recommendations.

Baby is 6m, nearly 7m.

I assumed that as someone who has had depression before that I would spot signs of it again but actually life is quite different with kids so even if you want to, you can’t just lie in bed all day. I have been feeling just knackered and joyless and anxious and angry a lot of the time. Barely contained simmering sometimes.

I should note that DH got a takeaway only for himself because I said I didn’t want anything! He didn’t just get something for himself and I had to sort myself. Frankly, I was fine with only needing to fix a very simple meal for my DD as I had eaten enough already. But something that does cause stress in relation to food is that he likes to pick what he wants for dinner that day. I would like to be able to plan for the week ahead to minimise running around. He doesn’t expect me to get it or make everything but my attempts to have a set meal on the table for us all at the same sort of time often thwarted by his 5 minute email that takes an hour or needing to pop out for an ingredient for the meal he wants instead of the meal we could have based on what’s already in.

My DD seems to respond well to routine so I’m trying to build that in, but this doesn’t help. But in the time of Covid where much of the last year has just been eat sleep work, it feels pretty mean to make the eat part more routine and take away any of DH’s fun in it. It’s a small point.

Thank you for the support and constructive help. I really appreciate it and am going to try to screenshot so I can try things. I’m not aiming for much today.

Two things that worked for me in similar situations to the dinner time plate smashing one.

1. when DD was being unreasonable/raging I tried to give them some of my ‘calm’. Deep slow breaths, try not to join her in her loss of control. When I thought this way it would snap me out of my impending rage. Imagine someone (friend anyone) who you suspect would be calm in this situation, try to act them in the moment.
2. try to recognise DD emotion and name it out loud, this will help her to feel understood which will immediately de-escalate the situation. Works almost every time. ‘Ah you’re cross because you didn’t want the chips to be taken away? I see, it’s ok, mummy has them righthere, they are coming straight back to you’. Practise this, try to find out why they have the emotion (even if you don’t agree with it) and name it. I still use this with DD’s 10 and 6, house is a lot calmer! Good luck OP, I used to rage and react just like situations you describe, it does get easier, you can change it.

OP it sounds as though some of your expectations are setting you up for stress and parenting fails. A few examples jumped out at me: a 3 year-old's behaviour isn't always very controllable but it is often deflectable or pre-emptable. With incidents like the chips thing, it was pointless getting into asking your dd to calm down and explain. Also, trying to over-control your and your dh's life/environment can be very stressful and lead to bad feeling and arguments - why can't your dh drink Coke in front of your dd? Adults do umpteen things in front of children that children aren't allowed to do. Other people will eat and drink things in front of your dd that she's not allowed. She will get used to it.

Ultimately the only person whose behaviour you have 100% control over is your own. Reconsider your expectations and pick your battles. Only have family/child rules that are 100% necessary. Try to anticipate trouble and avoid it,rather than reacting when it's already happened. And fake it till you make it. Imagine people are watching, and play-act as the calm mummy until it becomes more doable!

Shouting is a bad habit.

You’re shouting because you feel like you’re failing and putting that frustration on her. (“Why won’t she listen to me? I’m a bad mum!!”)

Everyone is in the same boat. You just need a strategy:

Count to 10 before you speak.

Learn to phrase things positively “you can jump on the trampoline, the sofa is for fitting” etc.

Fake it till you make it. Just be an actress when you want to tear your hair out. Channel super nanny.

But mostly try to disconnect your child’s behaviour from being a direct reflection on you. She’s just a kid learning how to be less annoying.

Sofa is for sitting!!!

Good advice from cherryleaf

The best way to calm your DD is to be her consistent calm companion when she's not. Model staying calm. Be her port in a storm.

Harder than it sounds, as you know.

Great that you're looking to get help. I think you probably are depressed even if it's not crushingly so.

[quote Ncbecauseselfloathing]@nanbread my childhood wasn’t shouty - I have always been a bit shouty with my family. I don’t remember my mum and dad shouting though I did get spanked and told off.

Right now - or indeed since DD born I don’t get much time for myself. I only had childcare for when at work and I work long hours and DH doesn’t drive so I had to do all the logistics of drop off etc. Now while wfh it’s different but we moved into...the house situation is not straightforward and I can’t keep on top of anything. But there just doesn’t seem to be a way to get time for myself. If I get a window that should be spent on cleaning etc or the pile of things to be done.

I end up stealing time from myself by being on my phone late at night to sort of get back some breathing space and I end up more tired because I’ve robbed myself of sleep.

DH finds my daughter tough too, he is more involved now that he is wfh but somehow it doesn’t help overall. Probably being im looking after the baby when he had DD.

I don’t think I’m peri menopausal. I am knackered but have always had a hot temper.

I sometimes try the getting down at her level thing and sometimes I am able to control my temper but other times I also ‘flip the switch’ and just scream.

I have read the explosive child and various articles online about dealing with tantrums. Basically I seem to react to her tantrum with a tantrum.[/quote]
If your OH doesn’t drive then he absolutely has to do more. Can you give him some meals and bed times while he’s wfh? Eg breakfast should be easy as he should be up any way for work - but he could do lunchtimes too.

If he says no then the only thing you can do is scale back what you do. Stop doing the shopping / logistics for him -he can sort it on the bus / taxi etc. Lower your standards for cleaning etc

Aha! That bit you said about depression looking different with kids reminded me of these two blog posts which I hope will give you a bit of perspective:

www.frugalwoods.com/2018/09/07/how-a-diagnosis-of-postpartum-depression-changed-my-life/

www.frugalwoods.com/2019/09/27/toxic-positivity-and-what-i-thought-having-kids-would-be-like-versus-what-its-actually-like/

@Ncbecauseselfloathing

I have been diagnosed with anxiety/ depression in the past. Not sure about meds now as I’m bf but that’s a question for the dr. I think I need to talk to the dr again. Also just need to go for a bloody walk every day as masses of excess weight doesn’t help my self loathing and short fuse.

My unmedicated anxiety used to make me feel like shouting, I could feel the rage burning from within me and rising over insignificant things, which at the time felt like a huge deal. I could sense it rising and so would pop DS in his cot and scream into my pillow, but i recognise the feeling. Now it's managed via medication and CBT I don't get like that when when he is pushing boundaries. I would recommend talking to your GP urgently. It's good you recognise it isn't good for your DD

Even when*

He doesn’t normally get much of a look in and is made to wait for his demanding older sister.

So much of what you say seems to drip with dislike for your DD. Do you like her? I’m sure you’d say you love her, but have things ever been positive between the two of you? Is she receiving a positive loving relationship from her father?

Toddlers are soaking up every single thing they see around them and learning how to be a person in this world, how to deal with strong emotions. Even in the midst of a tantrum she’s watching you to see how you cope with her big feelings.

You are abusing her. And your son, if he’s around or hearing the verbal abuse and shouting. You need real, immediate help, before more damage is done. Ring your GP, ring social services, try and organise therapy via the NHS (you won’t have to wait on the list if your baby is under 12m, you get seen right away). You need some accountability here as your attempts to stop abusing her on your own aren’t working.

This thread is a painful read thinking about your daughter and son. And I disagree with the poster who say we all get like this from time to time. We don’t. Please don’t normalise violence, aggression and anger towards and in front of small children.

talking on here is one thing, takes very little effort, you need to act or it’s just self indulgence where you can tell yourself you’ve done something about it but nothing actually changes for your children.

@LimeCoconut

This thread is a painful read thinking about your daughter and son. And I disagree with the poster who say we all get like this from time to time. We don’t. Please don’t normalise violence, aggression and anger towards and in front of small children.

talking on here is one thing, takes very little effort, you need to act or it’s just self indulgence where you can tell yourself you’ve done something about it but nothing actually changes for your children.

Have you ever actually discussed a painful honest truth about yourself and your negative behaviours? In an online or platform for multiple people to roast you?

You might say it's not enough, but you shouldnt argue its not an important, honest, first step to seeking support. It is not low effort. Its even harder to come back and maintain the dialogue.

People cant change in a vacuum.

Why does everyone end up suggesting ASD on these threads?

Your DD is 3 and is dealing with a new sibling and a mother with a new baby who is on maternity leave. Her mother has become angry and stressed towards her now she has a baby to look after. Your DD is struggling with the change and now she is the scape goat for all the stress having a new baby brings. Give your baby to her father and spend some quality time with your little girl. Feel sorry for her as she cant do right for doing wrong and now you all think she has SEN. Oh and you and your DH dynamic isnt helping...

@AntiSocialDistancer

It’s not no effort, no, but it isn’t alone going to do anything. Problem is a lot of abusers go through patterns like this where they will ‘open up’, get into it, get lots of sympathy and praise for being so brave, pat themselves on the back for being so strong and doing something about it cos it FEELS like it was something... but nothing changes.

I’m not necessarily saying that’s OP, we can’t know. But I am making the point that until this self focus is replaced by practical positive change it doesn’t help the victims. Hence why I suggested OP make herself accountable by telling professionals.