To not be able to believe what I'm reading

[Butwasitherdriveway]

Had a leaflet through my door......

I'm lost for words.

@Crystal90567

It is ridiculous to say that anti abortion pp dont care about the quality of life of the child. I know so many people who've had abortions. Always for convenience and timing. Mostly married women, most who went on to have children sometimes quite soon. All of those children who were aborted would have had an excellent quality of life.

Incorrect. Unless you know the circumstances of every woman, you simply cannot decide they would’ve had a great quality of life.

I was referring to feminist parties, not MRAs, you've even quoted where I have.
People wouldn't or shouldn't assume all feminists would hold radical or extreme views, as we're all different.
The KKK though there 's one glaring difference - you'd have to be extremely racist in the first place to even join.

@Crystal90567

It is ridiculous to say that anti abortion pp dont care about the quality of life of the child. I know so many people who've had abortions. Always for convenience and timing. Mostly married women, most who went on to have children sometimes quite soon. All of those children who were aborted would have had an excellent quality of life.

@Crystal90567 What is wrong with "convenience and timing"? You say that like it's a bad thing, like a woman deciding her own life path is a 'bad' thing? If a woman doesn't want to do something, she doesn't have to do it. "Because it doesn't suit me" is all the reason a woman needs. She is not a battery hen, or an incubator or broodmare! She is a HUMAN BEING! With rights, and a destiny and choices and paths. Are you saying a woman doesn't have the right to decide her own destiny? It not being convenient or the right timing is as decent a reason as any. A woman has rights to decide how her life will go, didn't you realise that? "Because I don't want to" is as valid as reason as any for a woman.

Thank you for admitting that many women who have abortions are married (maybe want to save their marriage and a baby would destroy it) and have children/or have them later. The narrative that women who sleep around and don't use birth control are the ones who have abortions is disgusting.

All of those children who were aborted would have had an excellent quality of life.
Lol, er, no. You can't know that. The child could have broke up the marriage, the mother could have then resented the child and abused it. It is the height of ignorance and narrow-mindedness for you to ass'ume the child would have had an 'excellent quality of life'.

Clearly, CLEARLY, they would not. Hence why they were aborted. The woman could not bring a child into their life and marriage at that time.

@Butwasitherdriveway Do all MRAs call for this?

Yes! That is their beliefs! They believe in male supremacy!

You seem to be under the misunderstanding that MRA is the opposite of feminism. It is not. Feminism means PARITY with men. MRA means SUPREMACY over women.

Cokedrinker
Great Post, completely agree (your one just now on abortions)

Ridiculous, disgusting comment. I think your anti-women comments are far more ridiculous and disgusting than Crystal's, OP. At least with Crystal et al, what you see is what you get. They don't put on a pretence of being for women's rights, then turn around pages later and say they don't believe in women's rights after all.

@Butwasitherdriveway

I'm not a support of feminism *@DiddlyWiddly*.

So you don't support women being equal to (not above nor below) to men?

You don't support women having the right to vote?

You don't support women having bodily autonomy?

You don't support women having the right to continue working after the marry (before the 70s women had to leave their job on marriage, feminism stopped this and allowed women to continue working)?

You don't support no fault divorce or divorce due to domestic abuse (feminist hard fought for right)?

You don't support the right of a woman to have her own bank account?

Either you are trolling and were against abortion all along, because no one could be against feminism, because the very rights you have today, are ONLY due to the hard fought for rights by our feminist sisters.

If you don't support feminism, you are against abortion. You are against women working. You are against women having the right to vote. You are against women having the right to hold a bank account in their own name. You seem far more dangerous and extreme anti women's rights than DiddlyWiddly. And that's saying something! No normal rational human being is not a feminist.

@Crystal90567 so all the women you know have had abortions purely for financial and convenience reasons. Fine. All the women I know have had abortions due to major foetal abnormalities incompatible with life. That's my anecdata.

Now do you see the problem?

To be fair driveway did clarify she didn't mean she wasn't a feminist at all, just meant wasn't a fan or a feminist in the sense of a radical, extreme version.
Which I'm not, either.

I've yet to come across any 'radical' or 'extreme' feminist. A feminist wants a woman to be safe, to have equal rights to men.

Not sure what is 'radical' or 'extreme' about that.

Do you ever truly listen to what people say? I mean really listen? I ask because I genuinely believe that ignorance and a lack of education (don't mean that to sound as harsh as that may come across) is responsible for the views you hold on abortion. I believe that if you read facts, science, and spoke to people you would not hold the view you do. It seems to me at least that you simply don't listen to anyone at all. Like that poster (whose name escapes me) who came on and made themselves vulnerable and opened themselves up to attempt to educate you and make you aware that life is not black and white, that this happens to real people, it's not an abstract discussion. When we see real examples of people that your views would affect, real people in the real world, how your views apply in reality can be seen. We need examples people we are afterall, talking about real people. Also, sorry, but I genuinely, honestly, sincerely find it hard to believe that someone who 'gave a stuff about people's feelings' would not be moved to re-examine their beliefs when you read of real life examples of what your views in practice would mean to another woman ie another human being. If you aren't moved enough to wake up and to re-examine your view on the presentation of a real life example, then imo you're either incapable of conscience or human feeling, or are purely a stubborn ideologue. Possibly all three. I cannot imagine that example not waking people out of their ideological ignorance and re-examining and rethinking their beliefs
Man, where to start.
I always listen to other people, always, even when I don’t agree with them.

I had friends who had abortions and was still friends with them despite vehemently disagreeing with what they had done.

As I said, I have no negative feelings towards women who get abortions.
They are making a choice that they believe is right and by law they are allowed to do so.
I don’t agree with it in most circumstances but I respect their right to do it.

I am not uneducated and I am disappointed you seem to think anyone who doesn’t agree with abortion automatically would be.
There are believe it or not plenty of perfectly intelligent people out there who are anti abortion.

I did well at school and college and wanted to be a doctor (and there are doctors who are opposed to abortion out there too) and had a myriad of medical books that I read religiously and regularly.
Included in those books were books on midwifery and gynaecology.
I am well aware of the developmental stages of pregnancy and the methods of termination.

From six weeks a heartbeat is present, that alone is enough for me to feel uncomfortable about abortions.
Electrical activity from the brain is present around this age aswell and although it isn’t developed enough yet to suggest the foetus has any concept of pain or other emotions, any recognition of light and sound etc it is developed enough for me to feel uncomfortable about removing it.

By 12 weeks a foetus’s gender is identifiable (though not by ultrasound as it isn’t sensitive enough)
They are showing reflexes and starting to move around.

Current science suggests that at that stage they are still not ‘conscious’, everything is automatic, they don’t understand anything so aren’t ‘babies’ but science evolves all the time.
Just because it is fact now, doesn’t mean it won’t be disproven at a later date.

When the abortion limit was set at 24 weeks it was believed that under 24 weeks babies were not viable.
Except that medicine has advanced so much that babies under 24 weeks absolutely can survive with no long lasting ill effects.

It wasn’t that long ago that it was ‘fact’ that babies didn’t need pain relief as they couldn’t feel pain.
We now know that is false.

Medicine and science evolves all the time.

I have heard all the arguments for and against.
I am against abortion.
I don’t understand why people are incapable of accepting that is my view and moving on.
We are entitled to our views.

I get very sick and tired and upset of the accusations and assumptions that usually follow whenever I dare to state my viewpoint on this.
Thinking I am uneducated for example, thinking that I don’t care about women,
thinking I am religious, thinking that I wish to punish women, thinking I have no sympathy for born children, thinking I don’t know any real life victims of rape and sexual assault, the list just goes on and on and it is all untrue.

There are plenty of viewpoints that I don’t like me but if faced with a person that holds that view I still manage to be polite to them.
I don’t accuse them of not being decent people or wanting to punish others or any of the other horrible things said here.

I have said multiple times in this thread that I only commented on it because it was talking about political party with regressive, sexist and homophobic policies.
I didn’t comment on the thread to talk about abortion.
I have said multiple times I never discuss my stance due to people either getting upset or getting nasty.
I have said multiple times on this thread I don’t really want to debate it because it’s too controversial and people get nasty.
Yet post after post asking me questions to then follow up with insults an accusations.

We are all entitled to our opinions

It is extremely sad that people often cannot hold opinions that go against the norm without being treated unkindly.
The ‘liberal left’ that pretends to be inclusive and equal and caring, so long as you stick to the ‘acceptable’ opinions.

Equality and kindness to all women.
Except those who believe that men are not the same as biological women..
Oh and those who don’t agree with abortion..
And those who voted Tory or Trump..
And so on and so on.

You seem far more dangerous and extreme anti women's rights than DiddlyWiddly. And that's saying something!
Case in point.
I am not at all anti women’s rights.
Anti abortion does not equal women hating
🤦🏻‍♀️

Except that medicine has advanced so much that babies under 24 weeks absolutely can survive with no long lasting ill effects.

Except that the above is a complete distortion of the state of affairs. Some babies can survive with no lasting ill effects. It's a small minority. The majority do not make it or have severe and permanent ill effects. Be honest.

Anti abortion does not equal women hating

Yes, it does.

@CokeDrinker what a lot of time wasted because you didn't read my clarification

@DiddlyWiddly

Do you ever truly listen to what people say? I mean really listen? I ask because I genuinely believe that ignorance and a lack of education (don't mean that to sound as harsh as that may come across) is responsible for the views you hold on abortion. I believe that if you read facts, science, and spoke to people you would not hold the view you do. It seems to me at least that you simply don't listen to anyone at all. Like that poster (whose name escapes me) who came on and made themselves vulnerable and opened themselves up to attempt to educate you and make you aware that life is not black and white, that this happens to real people, it's not an abstract discussion. When we see real examples of people that your views would affect, real people in the real world, how your views apply in reality can be seen. We need examples people we are afterall, talking about real people. Also, sorry, but I genuinely, honestly, sincerely find it hard to believe that someone who 'gave a stuff about people's feelings' would not be moved to re-examine their beliefs when you read of real life examples of what your views in practice would mean to another woman ie another human being. If you aren't moved enough to wake up and to re-examine your view on the presentation of a real life example, then imo you're either incapable of conscience or human feeling, or are purely a stubborn ideologue. Possibly all three. I cannot imagine that example not waking people out of their ideological ignorance and re-examining and rethinking their beliefs Man, where to start. I always listen to other people, always, even when I don’t agree with them.

I had friends who had abortions and was still friends with them despite vehemently disagreeing with what they had done.

As I said, I have no negative feelings towards women who get abortions.
They are making a choice that they believe is right and by law they are allowed to do so.
I don’t agree with it in most circumstances but I respect their right to do it.

I am not uneducated and I am disappointed you seem to think anyone who doesn’t agree with abortion automatically would be.
There are believe it or not plenty of perfectly intelligent people out there who are anti abortion.

I did well at school and college and wanted to be a doctor (and there are doctors who are opposed to abortion out there too) and had a myriad of medical books that I read religiously and regularly.
Included in those books were books on midwifery and gynaecology.
I am well aware of the developmental stages of pregnancy and the methods of termination.

From six weeks a heartbeat is present, that alone is enough for me to feel uncomfortable about abortions.
Electrical activity from the brain is present around this age aswell and although it isn’t developed enough yet to suggest the foetus has any concept of pain or other emotions, any recognition of light and sound etc it is developed enough for me to feel uncomfortable about removing it.

By 12 weeks a foetus’s gender is identifiable (though not by ultrasound as it isn’t sensitive enough)
They are showing reflexes and starting to move around.

Current science suggests that at that stage they are still not ‘conscious’, everything is automatic, they don’t understand anything so aren’t ‘babies’ but science evolves all the time.
Just because it is fact now, doesn’t mean it won’t be disproven at a later date.

When the abortion limit was set at 24 weeks it was believed that under 24 weeks babies were not viable.
Except that medicine has advanced so much that babies under 24 weeks absolutely can survive with no long lasting ill effects.

It wasn’t that long ago that it was ‘fact’ that babies didn’t need pain relief as they couldn’t feel pain.
We now know that is false.

Medicine and science evolves all the time.

I have heard all the arguments for and against.
I am against abortion.
I don’t understand why people are incapable of accepting that is my view and moving on.
We are entitled to our views.

I get very sick and tired and upset of the accusations and assumptions that usually follow whenever I dare to state my viewpoint on this.
Thinking I am uneducated for example, thinking that I don’t care about women,
thinking I am religious, thinking that I wish to punish women, thinking I have no sympathy for born children, thinking I don’t know any real life victims of rape and sexual assault, the list just goes on and on and it is all untrue.

There are plenty of viewpoints that I don’t like me but if faced with a person that holds that view I still manage to be polite to them.
I don’t accuse them of not being decent people or wanting to punish others or any of the other horrible things said here.

I have said multiple times in this thread that I only commented on it because it was talking about political party with regressive, sexist and homophobic policies.
I didn’t comment on the thread to talk about abortion.
I have said multiple times I never discuss my stance due to people either getting upset or getting nasty.
I have said multiple times on this thread I don’t really want to debate it because it’s too controversial and people get nasty.
Yet post after post asking me questions to then follow up with insults an accusations.

We are all entitled to our opinions

It is extremely sad that people often cannot hold opinions that go against the norm without being treated unkindly.
The ‘liberal left’ that pretends to be inclusive and equal and caring, so long as you stick to the ‘acceptable’ opinions.

Equality and kindness to all women.
Except those who believe that men are not the same as biological women..
Oh and those who don’t agree with abortion..
And those who voted Tory or Trump..
And so on and so on.

See this is an example of the misinformation that is out there, and why I asked my question, and your response reinforced my opinion that you are ill-informed and it is dogmatic ideology that drives you, not education. There is no 'heartbeat' at 6 weeks. There is no such thing. It's impossible. There is no heart walls, let alone formed heart. If you are wrong about this, what else do you think you may be wrong about? Just think about it.

You know what else has a 'heartbeat' and has 'reflexes' and 'moves about'? Bacterium. Tumours. Many things.

But more importantly? The born, actual, real human being woman has a heartbeat. Why don't you care about that?

@DiddlyWiddly

You seem far more dangerous and extreme anti women's rights than DiddlyWiddly. And that's saying something! Case in point. I am not at all anti women’s rights. Anti abortion does not equal women hating 🤦🏻‍♀️

Case in point, if you are anti-abortion, I hate to break it to you but you are indeed anti women's rights. You are also anti-life. And you'd prefer an actual human being, a woman, die all because of misinformation and dogmatic ideology.

Flowers act to sunlight. It doesn't make it human. Reflex action does not prove sentience. You are ideologically clinging to red herrings.

And sorry, buy, (yet again) you are deeply ill-informed, there is no one that has survived before 24 weeks without any long term affects. Before 24 weeks, skin, internal organs and sentience aren't there, and scientific discovery has proven that, no scientific advancement can change the way a fetus develops in the womb, no matter how you cling to the 'oh, but maybe one day', maybe one day we will live on Mars. Yet there is nothing science can do to make a fetus develop faster than is possible. This photo below with info about a 23rd week baby shows the REALITY of the situation for a 23rd week baby, for example:

Case in point, if you are anti-abortion, I hate to break it to you but you are indeed anti women's rights
I really, really am not. At all.
Science considers developing pregnancies not ‘babies’ until 24 weeks or so so yes, put against current scientific belief (which I always take with a pinch of salt given how frequently it changes) You could say I am misinformed, but I am most definitely not against women or nor rights for women.

And you'd prefer an actual human being, a woman, die all because of misinformation and dogmatic ideology
Why on earth would you think that?
I don’t want anyone to die.
I am opposed to abortion, war and euthanasia.
Pro life

[quote Butwasitherdriveway]@CokeDrinker what a lot of time wasted because you didn't read my clarification[/quote]
Your clarification does not explain why you said you are against feminism. Feminism only calls for equity. There is no other type of feminism. Nor does it clarify your support of MRA, which is all about STRIPPING RIGHTS FROM WOMEN. There is not one decent MRA, by virtue of the fact the very essence of an MRA is to strip all human rights from women. You have actively avoided extrapolating, and I believe that is because you were caught and you know it. There is no way you can defend an MRA. And there is no feminist that wants all women to thing the same, so your protestations are null and void. I also asked for examples of something bad feminists had done (I think I'll be waiting 200 years, because there is no such evidence available). You seem to actively avoid discussion when you are caught out.

@DiddlyWiddly

Case in point, if you are anti-abortion, I hate to break it to you but you are indeed anti women's rights I really, really am not. At all. Science considers developing pregnancies not ‘babies’ until 24 weeks or so so yes, put against current scientific belief (which I always take with a pinch of salt given how frequently it changes) You could say I am misinformed, but I am most definitely not against women or nor rights for women.

And you'd prefer an actual human being, a woman, die all because of misinformation and dogmatic ideology
Why on earth would you think that?
I don’t want anyone to die.
I am opposed to abortion, war and euthanasia.
Pro life

Yes, you are. And I think on some level, you know it. Science does not change the rate of development of a fetus, that has existed since Adam and Eve, you are lying there to avoid facing facts that you are ideologically driven and ignore science, facts and evidence. If you believe abortion shouldn't be allowed, as you have said, that means you are in favour of incubatorial slavery of women, of women losing their rights to autonomy. Guess what? It MEANS you are against women's rights. Clear, and simple.

You would prefer abortion not be allowed (your own words) and force women to die in backalley abortions, on the 'sepsis wards' (yes, look it up) - if they even got as far as a hospital before they died. Or a woman suicided because she refused to remain pregnant. Or, a woman risk her health in pregnancy, and her life in childbirth. Being opposed to abortion means you are anti-life.

Pro-choice IS pro-life. I hate to break it to you, but you are NOT pro-life. Indeed and in fact, you are anti-life and pro-death. There is no such thing as being pro-life and anti-abortion at the same time. You hold something with no heart, no skeletal system, no organs, no developed brain stem (as all the above are lacking when 95% of terminations are performed) higher than the life of the woman who has a heartbeat. You are anti the life of the woman, anti-women's rights, pro-slavery and pro-death. I am simply holding a mirror up to you and telling you as it is. You think you are pro-life. You are not. And what I sincerely want is for me to help you see reason, see the facts, and I know you can change your mind, if only you put aside ideology.

Oh and being anti-euthanasia (an extra level of evil and inhumanity from you) means you are pro-EXISTENCE (painful and suffering), not pro LIFE.

Flowers act to sunlight. It doesn't make it human
The possible consciousness of plants, insects and other life forms is an interesting topic that has been debated many times.
Plants don’t have a central nervous system in the same way we and other mammals do no so in theory they aren’t conscious and aren’t understanding but we don’t know everything, the behaviour of plants is an extremely interesting topic and there is much science still doesn’t understand.

Reflex action does not prove sentience
I specifically said that science believes at 12 weeks everything is ‘automatic’ and they are not conscious beings.

there is no one that has survived before 24 weeks without any long term affects
That just is not true.
Slightly over 60% of 23 and 24 week old babies survived the last time I looked at the statistics.
Not all of those babies will have long term effects but I don’t have time right now to go much further

I am simply holding a mirror up to you and telling you as it is
You think you are.

Oh and being anti-euthanasia (an extra level of evil and inhumanity from you) means you are pro-EXISTENCE (painful and suffering)
Evil?
Seriously?
If Euthanasia was legal it would be wide open to horrendous abuse and I see no way in which you could stop the system being abused.

@DiddlyWiddly

I am simply holding a mirror up to you and telling you as it is You think you are.

Oh and being anti-euthanasia (an extra level of evil and inhumanity from you) means you are pro-EXISTENCE (painful and suffering)
Evil?
Seriously?
If Euthanasia was legal it would be wide open to horrendous abuse and I see no way in which you could stop the system being abused.

No, you think it would be 'wide open' to abuse. Yet there is no evidence at all for this, and where euthanasia is legal there has been no evidence of abuse. It is manipulative and dishonest fearmongering at best. Also, we don't ban things that 'might' be open to abuse. You could say that about anything. To be against euthanasia is to demonstrate a lack of humanity and putting ideology above fact-based evidence.