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To not be able to believe what I'm reading

616 replies

Butwasitherdriveway · 26/04/2021 20:21

Had a leaflet through my door......

I'm lost for words.

To not be able to believe what I'm reading
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
DiddlyWiddly · 28/04/2021 20:08

People can agree with parties/ideologies all the time and not sign up to absolutely every single viewpoint they hold
Eg, a lot of women would agree with the whole staying at home and being a "housewife", providing for their husband in a "traditional" home and kids set up) and being opposed to abortion
It's not just a man's viewpoint
So both would probably agree there
Like driveway said, it's not all black and white where you agree with all aspects of everything
Sometimes it's just some you (general you) agree with*
But the points OP made re abortion and women’s rights are directly in contradiction to the stance of the SFP and MRM.

There is literally no common ground there.

The stance of OP early in the thread was support of women’s rights, support of women’s right to choose what to do with their bodies and support for victims of sexual violence.

The stance of the SNP and MRM is that women are inferior, their rights should be removed and far from support and protection from violence; they call for Domestic Violence laws to be repealed.

They are truly two entirely different ideologies with no common ground.

It’s like defending a hunt saboteur then defending a hunt master.
The two are just not compatible in any way, shape or form.

I am always willing to listen to other viewpoints mind and would be interested in hearing how OP can possibly justify support for MLM but so far, OP hasn’t detailed why she feels the way she does.

As it stands, I cannot understand how anyone could claim to be both a supporter of Feminism and the Men’s rights movement as the two movements are so different.

Crystal90567 · 28/04/2021 20:25

It is ridiculous to say that anti abortion pp dont care about the quality of life of the child. I know so many people who've had abortions. Always for convenience and timing. Mostly married women, most who went on to have children sometimes quite soon. All of those children who were aborted would have had an excellent quality of life.

Butwasitherdriveway · 28/04/2021 21:06

@Crystal90567

It is ridiculous to say that anti abortion pp dont care about the quality of life of the child. I know so many people who've had abortions. Always for convenience and timing. Mostly married women, most who went on to have children sometimes quite soon. All of those children who were aborted would have had an excellent quality of life.
Ridiculous, disgusting comment.
OP posts:
Butwasitherdriveway · 28/04/2021 21:07

@DiddlyWiddly

People can agree with parties/ideologies all the time and not sign up to absolutely every single viewpoint they hold Eg, a lot of women would agree with the whole staying at home and being a "housewife", providing for their husband in a "traditional" home and kids set up) and being opposed to abortion It's not just a man's viewpoint So both would probably agree there Like driveway said, it's not all black and white where you agree with all aspects of everything Sometimes it's just some you (general you) agree with* But the points OP made re abortion and women’s rights are directly in contradiction to the stance of the SFP and MRM.

There is literally no common ground there.

The stance of OP early in the thread was support of women’s rights, support of women’s right to choose what to do with their bodies and support for victims of sexual violence.

The stance of the SNP and MRM is that women are inferior, their rights should be removed and far from support and protection from violence; they call for Domestic Violence laws to be repealed.

They are truly two entirely different ideologies with no common ground.

It’s like defending a hunt saboteur then defending a hunt master.
The two are just not compatible in any way, shape or form.

I am always willing to listen to other viewpoints mind and would be interested in hearing how OP can possibly justify support for MLM but so far, OP hasn’t detailed why she feels the way she does.

As it stands, I cannot understand how anyone could claim to be both a supporter of Feminism and the Men’s rights movement as the two movements are so different.

Do all MRAs call for this?
OP posts:
Butwasitherdriveway · 28/04/2021 21:08

I'm not a support of feminism @DiddlyWiddly.

OP posts:
Quaagars · 28/04/2021 21:17

I'm not a support of feminism @DiddlyWiddly.

See, I wouldn't go that far personally, I am a fan of feminism as in the liberal type.
Not so much the radical type though.
Not a fan of that at all, where it seems to be "you're a man!" if you think for yourself, or only support a certain "type" of women.

Butwasitherdriveway · 28/04/2021 21:18

@Quaagars

I'm not a support of feminism @DiddlyWiddly.

See, I wouldn't go that far personally, I am a fan of feminism as in the liberal type.
Not so much the radical type though.
Not a fan of that at all, where it seems to be "you're a man!" if you think for yourself, or only support a certain "type" of women.

Yeah. That's what I mean.

The type where you're only accepted if you think a certain way.

OP posts:
Quaagars · 28/04/2021 21:31

Yeah. That's what I mean.

The type where you're only accepted if you think a certain way.

Ah fair enough then
There's different "levels" of feminism.
One I'm definitely not a fan of, the other I am.
I'm guessing the same could be said for mens movements too, that they probably have differing levels too.

mustlovegin · 28/04/2021 23:47

I don't have an opinion on this Party in particular, but surely some of their points are positive? They value family, marriage, children's wellbeing, education, fee speech

I don't understand the sarcasm or mockery

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 01:06

They value family, marriage, children's wellbeing, education, fee speech

I value all those things too.
I'm married, (straight) we both had kids before getting married and I'm heavily pro family) for starters
.... what do they mean by family though? It's not actually clear from the leaflet screenshotted upthread in the OP.
If it means of course they mean gay/lesbian couples too then fair enough.
Seeing as it also says stands for free speech and trans ideology, have seen enough threads on here over the past couple of years to know that's not what always as "innocent" (for want of a better word) than it makes out.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 01:07

and against trans ideology that should read

Steelix · 29/04/2021 01:24

@mustlovegin

I don't have an opinion on this Party in particular, but surely some of their points are positive? They value family, marriage, children's wellbeing, education, fee speech

I don't understand the sarcasm or mockery

I don't think they value all families or marriage...
Quaagars · 29/04/2021 01:47

I don't think they value all families or marriage...

exactly
I think they mean your 2.4 children type family
Which I'd fall into but still disagree with them though
As the older I've got come to realise that there's more to happy families than traditional mum, dad, kids... can come in all shapes and sizes
Question is though, is that what this party means?
Or more my "old" views?

me4real · 29/04/2021 01:59

@Butwasitherdriveway Is it so unusual/ 'unbelievable' to you to read these sorts of views?

I suppose I liked GCSE Religious Studies at school (although I'm not an Xtian and the teacher was an atheist) so we learned about different opinions on issues. I also watch people on YouTube with a wide range of opinions.

me4real · 29/04/2021 02:04

I'm a radical feminist BTW but I can still understand most people with a range of different opinions.

me4real · 29/04/2021 02:17

That was in about 1991/2 I did my GCSE in this stuff. If groups have a view on trans stuff it's just based on what they already believed.

mustlovegin · 29/04/2021 07:59

what do they mean by family though? It's not actually clear from the leaflet screenshotted upthread in the OP
I don't think they value all families or marriage

But that's the point. There isn't enough information on the leaflet and most posters haven't investigated this manifesto in detail. And still they are taking the opportunity to pile on those who uphold these perfectly acceptable values calling them 'regressive', 'backwards', 'Stepford wives', etc.

I find some of the views of the (unliberal) liberals a lot more 'scary', 'dangerous' and destructive TBH.

Butwasitherdriveway · 29/04/2021 08:00

[quote me4real]@Butwasitherdriveway Is it so unusual/ 'unbelievable' to you to read these sorts of views?

I suppose I liked GCSE Religious Studies at school (although I'm not an Xtian and the teacher was an atheist) so we learned about different opinions on issues. I also watch people on YouTube with a wide range of opinions.[/quote]
I can't quite believe that someone with these ridiculous views wants to be taken seriously I'm politics , no.

OP posts:
mustlovegin · 29/04/2021 08:06

As an aside, I think the vast majority of people want to be a decent person. It's unusual to not want to be

Who defines 'decency'?

pointythings · 29/04/2021 08:36

@mustlovegin

what do they mean by family though? It's not actually clear from the leaflet screenshotted upthread in the OP I don't think they value all families or marriage

But that's the point. There isn't enough information on the leaflet and most posters haven't investigated this manifesto in detail. And still they are taking the opportunity to pile on those who uphold these perfectly acceptable values calling them 'regressive', 'backwards', 'Stepford wives', etc.

I find some of the views of the (unliberal) liberals a lot more 'scary', 'dangerous' and destructive TBH.

I followed them up by having a look at their manifesto and they make it very clear that by their lights, marriage = a man and a woman. So same sex marriage doesn't count. That's quite enough to make them utterly revolting in my eyes, never mind their pro-life position and their position on the gender gap in pay. The leaflet is pitched to have a wide appeal, but if you look at what's behind it, it's awful.
CokeDrinker · 29/04/2021 10:08

[quote Butwasitherdriveway]@CokeDrinker

What's that got to do with domestic abuse?[/quote]
I wasn't referring to domestic abuse. I was referring to the trans issue, and the subsequent including men (or people with testicles and a penis) in a woman's shelter because said penis and testicle haver identifies as a woman. Anyone with a penis and testosterone is a threat to women, especially in women's shelters, and shouldn't be there.

CokeDrinker · 29/04/2021 10:24

@DiddlyWiddly

If you tell me what those assumptions were I'm happy to be corrected First you claimed I thought single parents were ‘worth nothing’ and that I favoured married people, when I told you that wasn’t the case you then picked my anti abortion stance to label me:
  • someone who dictates to others when they can and can’t make a decision (by doing what exactly..?
I literally never talk to anyone re abortion)
  • someone who doesn’t care about others (absolute bollocks), you wrote ‘diddly doesnt about that’ and ‘she only cares about her views on what she has decided women should do’ in response to that posters comment.
A comment that I very deliberately had not answered because I had already made my viewpoint clear and did not want to repeat it in response to that poster because the way the comment was worded they had obviously gone through a dreadful, traumatic thing and I felt they would be very upset if I responded. But yes, I obviously don’t care at all Hmm That must be why I repeatedly reiterated that i didn’t intend to upset anyone when that poster then followed up saying they were offended by my use of two emojis.
  • That I don’t give a stuff for anyone’s feelings (untrue)
  • That I haven’t undergone any form of trauma (at least that is how I interpreted it and you know what? That is untrue too) as you wrote ‘lucky then for not having to have gone through those experiences’
  • not a decent person (I most definitely am a decent person)

You made your views clear
Yes I did.
My view that I personally see a developing pregnancy as a baby (note that I didn’t present that as ‘fact’, just that that is how I see it whereas others see it as a ball of cells or whatever) and that I therefore couldn’t agree with it no matter how awful the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy.

Posters them arrived to tell me how dreadful I was for being so mean to you
That is their opinion but I can tell you i very much felt under attack from you, and to a lesser extent that poster but more so you.

It is a very divisive subject and my opinion is the minority, I am aware of that and whenever I have been asked about the subject inevitably people don’t like what they hear and tend to get aggressive.
I do not therefore typically talk about my view on it.
Indeed, when I commented I was commenting about the party, not abortion.
Had it been an abortion thread I would not have commented.

I at no point insulted anyone (the same cannot be said for you) nor engaged in hate speech nor set out to upset anyone and when it was clear that poster was upset I reiterated many, many times that I absolutely did not intend to upset anyone and that I wasn’t minimising or joking about sexual abuse.

and said her.experience sharing was 'inappropriate'
That isn’t actually quite what they said.

didn't seem to give a monkeys about her
It’s a very rare woman that isn’t angered and horrified and sickened by sexual abuse (or any kind of violence) towards a fellow woman.
I think you are making incorrect assumptions again there.

Incidentally, my comment wasn't to you so I'm not sure if needed your input
That’s okay, I’ve given it to you anyway.

@DiddlyWiddly Do you ever truly listen to what people say? I mean really listen? I ask because I genuinely believe that ignorance and a lack of education (don't mean that to sound as harsh as that may come across) is responsible for the views you hold on abortion. I believe that if you read facts, science, and spoke to people you would not hold the view you do. It seems to me at least that you simply don't listen to anyone at all. Like that poster (whose name escapes me) who came on and made themselves vulnerable and opened themselves up to attempt to educate you and make you aware that life is not black and white, that this happens to real people, it's not an abstract discussion. When we see real examples of people that your views would affect, real people in the real world, how your views apply in reality can be seen. We need examples people we are afterall, talking about real people. Also, sorry, but I genuinely, honestly, sincerely find it hard to believe that someone who 'gave a stuff about people's feelings' would not be moved to re-examine their beliefs when you read of real life examples of what your views in practice would mean to another woman ie another human being. If you aren't moved enough to wake up and to re-examine your view on the presentation of a real life example, then imo you're either incapable of conscience or human feeling, or are purely a stubborn ideologue. Possibly all three. I cannot imagine that example not waking people out of their ideological ignorance and re-examining and rethinking their beliefs.
CokeDrinker · 29/04/2021 10:42

@Butwasitherdriveway

Yes pumper, for the third time there's nothing wrong with it.

I didn't say it wasn't relative to the points per se, what I meant was his position as an MRA is not comparable to the hideous comments about same sex marriage and Jos murder which you appeared to be trying to do.

Ok, wait, what? MRAs believe men should retain supremacy over women.

You think there is 'nothing wrong with that'?

You cannot be pro-choice and say there is nothing wrong with MRAs. It's like saying you support Black Lives Matter but think there is nothing wrong with the KKK.

MRAs are evil and think women are lower than shit and should not work, should not be able to have an abortion etc. MRAs are WORSE than the party than distributed this leaflet. Far, Far, Far, FAR worse!

CokeDrinker · 29/04/2021 10:48

@Quaagars

Would you judge all racists because one of them is in the KKK?

Seeing as driveway has said If feminists formed a batshit party, I wouldn't judge all of them either.
You don't judge a party by the worst of its members.
The KK and racists is a whole different kettle of fish though - if you're that much of a one to join there in the first place, too right people will judge in that situation.
It's not comparable.

Yes it IS as bad as the KKK. In fact, I used the KKK as an example before I came across that other post that used it. KKK is no worse than MRA. MRA is as bad as the KKK. They are the same thing.
CokeDrinker · 29/04/2021 10:54

@Butwasitherdriveway

I could post hundreds of examples of bad things about feminists.

That was my point.

You are coming across as a woman-hater. Name 1 (one) 'bad thing about feminists'. Just one.

All feminists want is equity with men. That's all. And bodily autonomy. They don't want to rule over men or silence them, nor do they want to be ruled over by men or silenced. They just want human rights as a woman. You cannot be pro-choice without being a feminist.