Page 5 | To think a jail sentence for this tragic case of neglect achieves nothing?

QuadBod · 2021-04-23T19:32:13+00:00

The mum whose baby drowned in the bath while she was distracted on her phone: BBC News - Northamptonshire mum jailed for killing baby son left alone in bath [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56860846]] Completely tragic, but what does the jail sentence achieve? Publicity perhaps, and maybe that will help to save other lives, but otherwise I don't get it.

Griefmonster · 23/04/2021 22:17

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows are you being deliberately inflammatory and obtuse? This case is in no way comparable to baby P and the fact you are attempting to align the 2 is outrageous and to my mind exposes your prejudice.

This mother has not been accused of murdering her baby or abusing her baby.

She was found guilty of the UNINTENTIONAL death of her child. An accident, resulting in death and caused by her short term negligence (which appears to have been a one off and NOT a pattern of concern to anyone).

If we are going to invent details from the limited information we have, a more likely context is a mother with some kind of learning difficulties, physical or mental disabilities, unable to grasp the consequences of her actions. She is distracted, resulting in the death of her child. She lies at first (it is not a sustained lie through the court case) due to inherent distrust of services, learnt from previous experience .

I felt desperately sad for the child and the mother when I read the story. Both of them were failed by a system that isn't doing enough to support families who need it.

istherelifeafter40 · 23/04/2021 22:17

Don't our courts require a level of performance? It is usually discussed in relation to the cases of asylum seekers; the people who can weep on demand get settled status, and people who can't demonstrate to the judge on the day the full horror of the situation, don't get one.

I mean, I don't know anything about the case, but what the judge wants to see as remorse? Does the judge have an all-seeing eye? How do they decide if enough remorse has been demonstrated, especially for instance, by a person in shock or from another culture?
The skin colour and WhatsApp does raise questions about this tragic case

multivac · 23/04/2021 22:18

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

Why are people coming on telling their incomparable stories of near misses? It's up to the police, CPS bad courts to decide if there was neglect in a case. Not every single moment of imperfect parenting would be considered neglect. In fact very few would. But I happen to agree with the police and courts on when they think leaving a small baby in water for 5 minutes to do something that could be done in the baby's presence, crosses the line into neglectful

So presumably you think Amy Denning should also have served time? She was cleaning a changing mat. No need to do it out of the room; or she could have taken her baby with her. But that was a 'tragic accident'.

ThornAmongstRoses · 23/04/2021 22:18

I know a man who crashed his car due to speeding and dangerous driving (found guilty of this) whose 1 year old baby died from the injuries sustained. He already had previous records for speeding.

He had his licence removed for 12 months and was sentenced to 6 months of community service.

So I guess there is no logic to the punishment for killing your child as a direct result of your actions.

Aliceandthemarchhare · 23/04/2021 22:19

Yes the contrast between this and Amy denning is remarkable.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:20

@Griefmonster I very clearly wasn't comparing the two cases. In fact I even mentioned they weren't comparable. My question was where do we draw the line with "losing her child was punishment enough?". How far do we go. And then I said should we have said this for Baby P.

Dingleydel · 23/04/2021 22:22

A prison sentence seems pointless in this case. Although there have been several cases where mothers who have left babies in the bath have been prosecuted. Oddly though the mother who left her twins unattended for 2 hours whilst on conference calls whilst one crawled into a hot tub and drowned was not. I wonder what the difference is in the eyes of the law? Both seem like they are momentary lapses in judgment. I’ve known several parents admit they left babies/toddlers to nip and get a towel only to come back and find them underwater (and read several MN threads on the topic). I wonder where they draw the line between lapse of judgment and serous neglect. When the parent is specifically doing something else like being on the phone?

Aliceandthemarchhare · 23/04/2021 22:23

In this case, losing her child is punishment enough.

In baby p’s case, it isn’t/wasn’t. Because as you rightly say they are not comparable.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:23

@istherelifeafter40

Don't our courts require a level of performance? It is usually discussed in relation to the cases of asylum seekers; the people who can weep on demand get settled status, and people who can't demonstrate to the judge on the day the full horror of the situation, don't get one.

I mean, I don't know anything about the case, but what the judge wants to see as remorse? Does the judge have an all-seeing eye? How do they decide if enough remorse has been demonstrated, especially for instance, by a person in shock or from another culture?
The skin colour and WhatsApp does raise questions about this tragic case

A judge makes decision based on what they do see not what May or may not go on behind the scenes. How else would you expect them to gauge the defendant's character?

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:24

@Aliceandthemarchhare

In this case, losing her child is punishment enough.

In baby p’s case, it isn’t/wasn’t. Because as you rightly say they are not comparable.

But why wasn't losing her child enough for Baby P's mother? What are your defining factors? Where do you draw the line?

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:25

I’ve known several parents admit they left babies/toddlers to nip and get a towel only to come back and find them underwater (and read several MN threads on the topic). I wonder where they draw the line between lapse of judgment and serous neglect.

In this case - death

Aliceandthemarchhare · 23/04/2021 22:25

Christ james

Because one involved sustained torture over a period of months and the other involved talking on the phone for four minutes

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:27

But both resulted in death - they aren't comparable of course...but it isn't an easy feat to allow a child to die, only serious failures result in this, and I don't think a custodial sentence in any cases like either of these is unfair.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 23/04/2021 22:29

OOH I'm saying Yes she was irresponsible and careless at the time. However she has paid the ultimate price in losing her little boy. No amount of prison time can hurt her anymore.

OTOH I'm saying. Not being able to leave her damn phone alone for a few minutes cost her son his life. She needs to be made an example of.

multivac · 23/04/2021 22:29

@Dingleydel

A prison sentence seems pointless in this case. Although there have been several cases where mothers who have left babies in the bath have been prosecuted. Oddly though the mother who left her twins unattended for 2 hours whilst on conference calls whilst one crawled into a hot tub and drowned was not. I wonder what the difference is in the eyes of the law? Both seem like they are momentary lapses in judgment. I’ve known several parents admit they left babies/toddlers to nip and get a towel only to come back and find them underwater (and read several MN threads on the topic). I wonder where they draw the line between lapse of judgment and serous neglect. When the parent is specifically doing something else like being on the phone?

Indeed. I had to scroll through several cases where parents were jailed before finding a white one who wasn't.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:29

And comparing to other similar cases - the justice system is nothing if not inconsistent. It's not right but it's true. I still couldn't be convinced that leaving a 5 month old alone for 5 minutes is anything other than shockingly neglectful

Dingleydel · 23/04/2021 22:30

But James why then wasn’t the working from home mother prosecuted for leaving her twins unattended when one drowned? It seems so arbitrary how they decide. It seems if they decide you’re an otherwise well meaning parent who had a judgment lapse then it’s a tragic accident. The scenario is the same in my mind, parent wasn’t supervising child because they were focusing on something else and their child died.

Iminaglasscaseofemotion · 23/04/2021 22:30

Well if she killed her child in a car crash because she was on her phone,would you think the same?

AngstyMom · 23/04/2021 22:31

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion

Well if she killed her child in a car crash because she was on her phone,would you think the same?

According to PP upthread, a father who did that got his licence revoked and a non-custodial sentence. He was speeding at the time.

PandemicAtTheDisco · 23/04/2021 22:34

I think the dishonesty is what did it. If I accidently caused my child death then my immediate response wouldn't be to try and lie about what happened.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:34

@Dingleydel

But James why then wasn’t the working from home mother prosecuted for leaving her twins unattended when one drowned? It seems so arbitrary how they decide. It seems if they decide you’re an otherwise well meaning parent who had a judgment lapse then it’s a tragic accident. The scenario is the same in my mind, parent wasn’t supervising child because they were focusing on something else and their child died.

That's a good question - and FWIW I think that's utterly neglectful too.

But the answer is - shocking inconsistencies in every area of the justice system. As sick as it sounds, it's often a postcode lottery. CPS have cases referred from the police...if your local force has the type of officers who think something like that is just a horrible accident, you will never see a prison cell. If they're more inclined to think criminal negligence occurred, you will. Neglect can often be a bit of a grey area. If this woman had been tried in a different part of the country, she may have avoided prison altogether. There does have to be some semblance of judgement and instinct in those who work in police and judicial systems though. I don't really know what the answer is to make it more consistent

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 23/04/2021 22:34

One thing I will say though is hand on the Holy Book who watches their kids 24/7. I'm.not saying anything as irresponsible as leaving a baby unsupervised in water but which one of has never taken our eye off the ball

Cissyandflora · 23/04/2021 22:36

@user1636853246842157

She didn't drown her baby. She was inattentive for 4 minutes having provided an otherwise satisfactory level of care throughout her baby's life.

The only difference between her and distraught posters on here who've been distracted and had their baby fall off a bed or a sofa or down stairs or into a pond and been injured but survived is luck.

Same with posters discussing the various times they leave babies unsupervised to buy milk or shower or do a work out... Or scroll through mumsnet for 4 minutes.

She called an ambulance immediately. She attempted resuscitation . She was immediately honest that she had left the room, she never lied or concealed that. The only part she left out was being on her phone at the time.

These are really excellent points.

Yes she was terribly unlucky and there are many times that parents and carers can become distracted and thus neglectful. I’m another one who can’t understand what a prison sentence will serve.

Dingleydel · 23/04/2021 22:36

multivac I agree. I’m going to just say it but I think there’s a good dollop of at the very least classism and probably racism too.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:36

@Awwlookatmybabyspider it's not illegal to take your eye off your child though, as long as you're not being neglectful to the point they die. 24/7 staring at your child isn't a good or realistic method of parenting, and no one expects that, but leaving them in water for 5 minutes is a bit more than 'taking your eye off them'