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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think a jail sentence for this tragic case of neglect achieves nothing?

315 replies

QuadBod · 23/04/2021 20:32

The mum whose baby drowned in the bath while she was distracted on her phone: BBC News - Northamptonshire mum jailed for killing baby son left alone in bath
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56860846

Completely tragic, but what does the jail sentence achieve? Publicity perhaps, and maybe that will help to save other lives, but otherwise I don't get it.

OP posts:
JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 21:30

@NiceGerbil

No I mean she probably wouldn't have been keen to see her parent/s imprisoned over it.
That child didn't die. If the mother had got authorities the worst that would happen is a social worker would have popped round to discuss the importance of safety and told them to get a cover. If the woman in the article had been on her phone for one minute, not 5, and saved her son but attended hospital, it's likely the same consequence (social worker giving a safety talk and support) would have happened. The they key factor here is a baby died. To all a situation to occur where the end result is child death is never comparable to little slip ups or oversights.
CSIblonde · 23/04/2021 21:30

I don't see why she had to leave the bathroom to be on her phone. You can put it on speaker on the side, while you supervise your child. Also people lie, so it was prob a lot longer & her 'norm'. People are creatures of habit, they rarely act of character or deviate from normal beheaviour laterbs. You can't say jail isn't appropriate, it was clear neglect. If it was a MH issue she'd be sectioned not imprisoned. What message does it send if neglect leading to death isnt punished?

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 21:31

@Aliceandthemarchhare

There’s a grey space though james between a completely unavoidable accident and this.

I dropped my phone on baby ds on Monday. I felt so awful. I was lucky it was his cheek and not his head and he still cried so much.

It was an awful thing to do. I imagine she probably did it before and all was fine, then it wasn’t fine. How awful Sad

It's quite hard to allow the death of a child to happen. More than dropping a phone on their head, more than co sleeping safely. These carry negligible risks of death. Leaving a small baby unable to sit in an actual bath alone for 5 minutes very obviously carries a different risk.
NiceGerbil · 23/04/2021 21:33

But the child could have.

Unless there were others concerns around neglect I think this is worrying.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 21:33

@NiceGerbil

But the child could have.

Unless there were others concerns around neglect I think this is worrying.

Laws are not written on what could have happened, but what did happen.
JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 21:34

And FWIW if that poster had said her child died in the pond at her ILs I highly doubt people would be saying "poor in laws - these things happen, such a grey area, I turned away from my baby for 14 seconds yesterday and he face planted his high chair tray, it could've been him that was dead" Hmm

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 21:35

I think leaving a baby alone in water for 5 minutes is a concern around neglect TBH

Gingernaut · 23/04/2021 21:36

She lied about the circumstances. She perjured herself. YABU

Aliceandthemarchhare · 23/04/2021 21:37

james no one is saying what she did wasn’t neglect, wasn’t negligence, wasn’t awful.

What people are saying is that jail will not achieve anything. Anything at all. It will not bring the poor child back, it will not mean a dangerous person is locked up to prevent any further harm happening, it will not make her a better parent or person.

All it will do is make moving on and making any sort of life harder.

She will very also be at risk in prison and if her mental state is already fragile prison won’t help that.

TheGoogleMum · 23/04/2021 21:41

I'm torn. It's obviously very unsafe to leave such a young baby alone in a bath but she has lost her baby and isn't that punishment enough?
Whilst I wouldn't leave DD in the bath (admittedly now she is 2 I don't always make sure I have a towel ahead of time so sometimes run out for a few seconds to grab one) I have been in a different situation that I hadn't realised it was dangerous before a close call. Could she have genuinely not realised the danger?

CSIblonde · 23/04/2021 21:41
  • behaviour patterns
JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 21:44

@Aliceandthemarchhare but the purpose of a custodial sentence isn't necessarily to achieve some sort of penance. It's a philosophical question which goes way beyond this particular case - what is the point of prisons? In this country - punishment, rehabilitation, and keeping people safe from perpetrators. We won't know the whole story but I find it alarming that she isn't remorseful, and hopefully prison will give her the support she needs (she will be offered therapy in some form that would probably take longer to access here).

Aliceandthemarchhare · 23/04/2021 21:46

I think she probably is remorseful, to be honest.

You couldn’t not be.

But it’s sometimes hard facing up to things. Generally I think just being punitive isn’t effective.

Foobydoo · 23/04/2021 21:48

@AuntyHope

I think this was a Horrible lapse in judgement, but can't help feeling that there are lots of other cases like this where the police and inquest made a different decision and did not pursue criminal proceedings. I do think a lot of it is to do with your social standing and how much you pay your lawyers tbh
I agree, had this been a white middle leaving the bathroom to update Instagram the verdict would be far more lenient.
Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel · 23/04/2021 21:53

She killed her child. She absolutely should be sent to jail

This.

multivac · 23/04/2021 21:53

@Gingernaut

She lied about the circumstances. She perjured herself. YABU
She didn't 'perjure herself' FFS. She wasn't under oath when being interviewed by the police. But yeah, the young black woman did indeed deny being on the phone at first when being interviewed by the police about a possible manslaughter charge. How people are getting from that that she 'showed no remorse' is beyond me.
JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 21:55

@multivac probably from this quote from the judge:

"I am satisfied that you remain in denial of your responsibility for your son's death and your lies were in part a reflection of the fact that you have not yet accepted that you are responsible for the death of your baby."

What's that if not unremorseful?

Griefmonster · 23/04/2021 21:59

@MorrisZapp the sentencing judge DID NOT say that she expressed no remorse. They said she did not take responsibility. There was a description of her immediately calling ambulance and attempting to resuscitate her son.

There is a world of difference between showing no remorse for her actions and not taking responsibility for them. Compare:
I don't care my son died - no remorse.
My son drowned in the bath. There's nothing I could have done differently. - no responsibility.

sweetchillidumplings · 23/04/2021 22:00

[quote JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows]@multivac probably from this quote from the judge:

"I am satisfied that you remain in denial of your responsibility for your son's death and your lies were in part a reflection of the fact that you have not yet accepted that you are responsible for the death of your baby."

What's that if not unremorseful?[/quote]
It means what they said, which was that she is still in denial. Most people are when they are grieving. Her child died. Of course that baby must've suffered but she now has to live for the rest of her life without her child and knowing the fact that yes, her choice that day lost her probably the most precious thing in her life. Your child dying is a big thing to come to terms with regardless of the reason. I can't imagine how many times she has thought of the 'what ifs'.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:06

Those saying her child died is punishment enough - when someone is neglectful where do we draw the line? Baby P? His mum was neglectful (albeit on a larger scale than this woman) and her child died. Was it punishment enough for her? Did she deserve a custodial sentence?

Beseigedbykillersquirrels · 23/04/2021 22:06

@MarcelinesMa

She fucked up utterly but I think her baby dying is punishment enough. She doesn’t deserve a prison sentence on top of what is probably horrendous guilt. Yeah she lied about using her phone when she should have been supervising her baby but maybe she was ashamed about that? She called 999 straight away and tried to resuscitate him, it wasn’t like she didn’t care or tried to cover up her son’s drowning- she did all the right things to try to save him. It seems the only thing she lied about was using her phone at the time he drowned. I really hope she can appeal ASAP or at the very least her prison time flies by.
This comment is absolutely disgraceful. My mouth actually dropped open when I read it. Disgusting.
Aliceandthemarchhare · 23/04/2021 22:09

Why beseiged?

I’m really sorry but I genuinely can’t see what was shocking in the post you quoted?

Fifimoomon · 23/04/2021 22:11

I agree, unless there were prior concerns about neglect.

This has story has got to as I was very nearly in a similar horrendous position and it's something that has haunted me ever since - during an extremely hot summer I had been opening the windows wide of an evening, off the restrictor, to try and cool the flat down before bed time. One evening DS was pottering around with his toys (he was about 18 months) and I went into kitchen get his bottle ready, when I suddenly had a bad feeling and ran into his room to find him stood on the windowsill looking out. He had climbed up via a chair and then side table onto to the window sill, having never climbed like that before, and it had never occurred to me as a route of access. It all happened in a couple of minutes. My flat is in the 4th floor so if he had fallen he would not have survived.

I grabbed him and he was fine - I have not got over it though, the guilt is always there, and I have thought that I would have gone to prison for neglect if the unthinkable had happened. I'm not sure what good it would have done, nothing could have been anywhere near the punishment of living with that.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:12

There is a world of difference between showing no remorse for her actions and not taking responsibility for them. Compare:
I don't care my son died - no remorse.
My son drowned in the bath. There's nothing I could have done differently. - no responsibility.

@Griefmonster saying "I don't care my son died" isn't the definition of showing no remorse HmmRemorse is acknowledging and regretting your bad decisions. Within the is accepting responsibility, something she apparently hasn't done. Whose interest do you think it's in for a woman who can't accept responsibility for the death of her son to be walking away with no rehabilitation or support?

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/04/2021 22:15

Why are people coming on telling their incomparable stories of near misses? It's up to the police, CPS bad courts to decide if there was neglect in a case. Not every single moment of imperfect parenting would be considered neglect. In fact very few would. But I happen to agree with the police and courts on when they think leaving a small baby in water for 5 minutes to do something that could be done in the baby's presence, crosses the line into neglectful