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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a jail sentence for this tragic case of neglect achieves nothing?

315 replies

QuadBod · 23/04/2021 20:32

The mum whose baby drowned in the bath while she was distracted on her phone: BBC News - Northamptonshire mum jailed for killing baby son left alone in bath
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56860846

Completely tragic, but what does the jail sentence achieve? Publicity perhaps, and maybe that will help to save other lives, but otherwise I don't get it.

OP posts:
Coronawireless · 24/04/2021 11:12

@HunterHearstHelmsley

Does jail time achieve anything at any other time? A random spree killer is unlikely to do it again, should we let them off? An estranged father kills his children to hurt his ex, should we let them off? A drink driver accidentally mows someone down, them too?
A spree killer is likely to do it again. A father capable of killing his own children for revenge may kill again next time someone annoys him. A drunk driver has knowingly done something dangerous without giving a crap and so may well reoffend.
RaiseTheBeastie · 24/04/2021 11:19

Does jail time achieve anything at any other time? A random spree killer is unlikely to do it again, should we let them off? An estranged father kills his children to hurt his ex, should we let them off? A drink driver accidentally mows someone down, them too?

A spree killer is likely to do it again. A father capable of killing his own children for revenge may kill again next time someone annoys him. A drunk driver has knowingly done something dangerous without giving a crap and so may well reoffend.

A mother that leaves her 5 month old alone for 5 minutes in a bath, and even after the death of the baby reportedly does not think that she acted negligently and does not accept full responsibility, is also more likely to make the same or similar mistake in future.

A jail sentence is definitely needed, for the same reason that other acts of negligence or stupidity that result in a death should, including drink driving.

There is JUST as much publicity out there about the dangers of leaving young children in a bath as there is about the dangers of drink driving.

There is no excuse that should save this young woman from a sentence.

AbsolutelyPatsy · 24/04/2021 11:36

if she had been getting something from a cupboard i wonder if the jail service would have been decided? perhaps it was to make an issue of phone use?

CounsellorTroi · 24/04/2021 11:57

@AngstyMom

What’s her defence?

Being human, and therefore prone to errors in judgement?

Would you say that is a defence for the parents of children dying in hot cars? In the US on average 38 children under 15 die this way every year.
Branleuse · 24/04/2021 11:59

Thats a tragic accident.

listershologram · 24/04/2021 12:15

A tragic accident was a case a few years ago where a child drowned in the bath after the parent in charge collapsed. That's an accident - not choosing to leave your baby in a dangerous place unsupervised so you can chat to a friend.

KarmaStar · 24/04/2021 12:18

If it was your baby someone else had allowed to drown I wonder if you would still feel the same?

Aliceandthemarchhare · 24/04/2021 12:33

Which is precisely why the relatives and friends don’t get to decide how the judicial system works.

luisesepulveda · 24/04/2021 12:47

*I feel like we have these parents who are deemed unlikeable and deviant people who do something terrible because they are neglectful and careless. If something bad happens they are at fault and should be punished. It's never an accident.

Then on the other hand we have these parents who are deemed likeable and virtuous/good. They don't do something terrible, something terrible happens to them because of a momentary lapse of judgement. If something bad happens they are also seen as the victims, they do not need to be punished because what their tragedy is punishment enough. It's always an accident.

Race, class, and other social and economic factors (power, respectability, etc. ) are at play here. Single parents, mental illness, poverty, unemployment, other class factors and being BAME or a migrant or refugee go against people massively in these cases. People who have been bought up to know how to talk to people in these situations will do a lot better in interview and in the stand (if they get that far) as well as being better at managing the media.

There are massive inconsistencies in the way cases like this are managed. I'm not sure whether prison is the right place or what the answer is in situations like this, but there are definitely inconsistencies in the way people are treated. And all too often the face of evil is somebody from a disadvantaged group, and the face of the "unfortunate parent" eg. The McCanns is white, middle class, and good at managing the police, media etc.

Is it really better to go on a conference call for a couple of hours than to get caught up in a social call for a few minutes? Legally these should not be treated so differently. Both are death by neglect.*

This is a very good post. Also, like in this case, they never admitted negligence, and all their friends were doing the same thing. In their case it's a combination of class, ethnicity and professional life (they are both doctors), that didn't get them a sentence for negligence.

Aspiringmatriarch · 24/04/2021 13:01

I think a custodial sentence is appropriate. It doesn't mean she's an evil person, but four whole minutes is a very long time to leave a baby unattended in a bath. If she has significant learning difficulties (I don't know the details of the case but someone earlier in the thread seemed to imply this), then I think that changes things and I would expect any judge to take this into consideration. But from the bare facts of the case, this was the right decision. Prison isn't the worst thing that could happen to her, losing her baby is the worst thing, but that doesn't mean it's 'punishment enough'. She caused the death of her child, this wasn't some tragic accident, it was a clear case of neglect. How on earth would it be appropriate for a crime of this seriousness not to carry a custodial sentence, absent any obvious mitigating factors? She may not be a danger to society, but surely the manslaughter of a child is something that should come with the most serious of consequences? I hope she will also receive therapy and other support but you don't walk away from killing a child imo.

Maggiesfarm · 24/04/2021 13:05

@KarmaStar

If it was your baby someone else had allowed to drown I wonder if you would still feel the same?
The reason we have the law is to protect people on all sides of an issue. If someone had accidentally hurt or killed my child I would be neutral on the subject and there are some who would take the law into their own hands which would do nobody any good.

The law must be unbiased.

Personally I think a prison sentence is not appropriate in this case but it isn't up to me. I doubt she will serve the full sentence. Nothing will bring her baby back but she will need a lot of help; I hope she receives it.

drpet49 · 24/04/2021 13:12

@eekbumbler

Where were the health visitors showing how to bath baby properly. Who recommended the seat - stupid idea!

Anyone with half a brain cell knows you don’t leave a baby unattended in the bath!!! Nothing wrong with using a baby seat because it is used with adult supervision.

PuttingOnTheKitsch · 24/04/2021 13:15

@Moonwhite

I think what sort of person the mother is perceived to be counts for a lot with the authorities. The mother in the article linked above lost her baby son to drowning while she was out of the room cleaning a soiled mat. But a dirty mat could have waited, just as sending a whatsapp message could have waited. But one has more respectability attached than the other. Same with the mother of twins being on work calls.

I grew up on a rough council estate. I was surrounded by people who couldn't say sorry and people who would always look for blame elsewhere than themselves, because the penalty for being the one to blame would be severe, like a beating. They were raised needing to protect themselves and never appear weak. It's very different to middle class people with kind loving parents who never had to build a defensive shell. So I understand why this mother can't accept responsibility and why she's insisting the babyseat was to blame. It's the only way she can protect herself. The mothers who can openly express grief to strangers and blame themselves knowing that their loved ones will still support them are the ones who are considered to have suffered enough and sent home.

I don't think a white woman would have been convicted of this - obviously, because there have been plenty of cases and no convictions that I'm aware of. (There may be some, but the default is to not punish.) The judge just couldn't empathize with Ms Perry so he's sending her to prison when she'll be hurting as badly as all the other Mums who made a stupid mistake.

This is a very good post. Especially this part:

"I grew up on a rough council estate. I was surrounded by people who couldn't say sorry and people who would always look for blame elsewhere than themselves, because the penalty for being the one to blame would be severe, like a beating. They were raised needing to protect themselves and never appear weak."

The mother in the OP didn't have the cultural capital to "play the game" and act suitably remorseful. It makes me wonder about the standard of legal representation that she had, as a good solicitor/barrister would have covered this with her.

Do I think this mother was harshly treated compared to others?

Yes.

But at the same time, a child has lost its life and I do think, despite protestations to the contrary, we sometimes view children's lives very cheaply. There are some very low sentences dished out for child manslaughter in other cases. The mother in this case only served 4 years www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-28926241

listershologram · 24/04/2021 13:19

Whereas the mother in this case has been sentenced to only 22 months and will presumably serve less.

AngstyMom · 24/04/2021 14:06

She may not be a danger to society, but surely the manslaughter of a child is something that should come with the most serious of consequences?

I feel like it did come with the most serious of consequences- she lost her baby. No prison term is more serious than that.

makingmammaries · 24/04/2021 14:13

Her story does not make sense. Why would she need to leave the room to send a WhatsApp or make a call, and what’s to say it was only 5 minutes and only this once?

picklemewalnuts · 24/04/2021 14:46

She unintentionally killed her baby.

People have intentionally attacked other people, and not been sent to prison. Rapists and child abusers escape prison.

A mum who left the bathroom for 5 minutes, thinking her child would be safe in a bath seat, has been imprisoned.

I'm shocked people think that's justice.

Aspiringmatriarch · 24/04/2021 14:50

@AngstyMom

She may not be a danger to society, but surely the manslaughter of a child is something that should come with the most serious of consequences?

I feel like it did come with the most serious of consequences- she lost her baby. No prison term is more serious than that.

Which I acknowledged. I still think it's a very serious offence.
Nith · 24/04/2021 14:50

@MarcelinesMa

MarcelinesMa *She fucked up utterly but I think her baby dying is punishment enough. She doesn’t deserve a prison sentence on top of what is probably horrendous guilt. Yeah she lied about using her phone when she should have been supervising her baby but maybe she was ashamed about that? She called 999 straight away and tried to resuscitate him, it wasn’t like she didn’t care or tried to cover up her son’s drowning- she did all the right things to try to save him. It seems the only thing she lied about was using her phone at the time he drowned. I really hope she can appeal ASAP or at the very least her prison time flies by.* This comment is absolutely disgraceful. My mouth actually dropped open when I read it. Disgusting.

What was disgusting/disgraceful about what I said exactly? I get why people might not agree with my opinion but I don’t get the disgust or disgrace or shock Shock Hmm Confused

I agree, your comment was neither disgusting nor disgraceful.
Cissyandflora · 24/04/2021 17:17

@Moonwhite

I think what sort of person the mother is perceived to be counts for a lot with the authorities. The mother in the article linked above lost her baby son to drowning while she was out of the room cleaning a soiled mat. But a dirty mat could have waited, just as sending a whatsapp message could have waited. But one has more respectability attached than the other. Same with the mother of twins being on work calls.

I grew up on a rough council estate. I was surrounded by people who couldn't say sorry and people who would always look for blame elsewhere than themselves, because the penalty for being the one to blame would be severe, like a beating. They were raised needing to protect themselves and never appear weak. It's very different to middle class people with kind loving parents who never had to build a defensive shell. So I understand why this mother can't accept responsibility and why she's insisting the babyseat was to blame. It's the only way she can protect herself. The mothers who can openly express grief to strangers and blame themselves knowing that their loved ones will still support them are the ones who are considered to have suffered enough and sent home.

I don't think a white woman would have been convicted of this - obviously, because there have been plenty of cases and no convictions that I'm aware of. (There may be some, but the default is to not punish.) The judge just couldn't empathize with Ms Perry so he's sending her to prison when she'll be hurting as badly as all the other Mums who made a stupid mistake.

This is truly the most profound and articulate post I have ever read on mn. You have given me so much to think about. Thank you for this.
wingsnthat · 24/04/2021 17:20

I genuinely don’t think the judge would have imposed this sentence if the mother didn’t look the way she did frankly

I mean, the McCanns weren’t even in the same building as their child and left them unattended for significantly longer yet have been heralded by the media

AuntyHope · 24/04/2021 18:23

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AuntyHope · 24/04/2021 18:25

If I did that I would have at had my Other DC take off me, never be allowed supervision of a child ever again, any new DC removed at birth and probably served prison time for neglect. Cases like this remind me how unfair our "Justice" system can be

GiveMeTulipsfromAmsterdam · 24/04/2021 18:58

@Clydesider

She chose to leave the room to mess about on her phone. She deliberately lied to the police about this and the judge believes she has not yet accepted it's all her fault.

She didn't need to leave the bathroom to answer the front door or anything like that. Did she even need to leave the room at all?

I think, on balance, that the judge was right to send her to prison; as punishment for selfishly neglecting and endangering her child, and as an example to any other parents who think sending emojis to their mates on WhatsApp takes priority over keeping their kids safe.

The McCanns left THREE young and vulnerable children in an UNLOCKED apartment to eat and drink EVERY night at a tapas bar..... one child VANISHED probably died...... no punishment from the courts....

They are white, middle class professionals....

Would you send the McCanns to prison too?

GiveMeTulipsfromAmsterdam · 24/04/2021 19:00

Ps the mccanns deliberately lied to the police saying the room was locked so someone must have broken in... ah but that's ok?