To think a jail sentence for this tragic case of neglect achieves nothing?

[QuadBod]

The mum whose baby drowned in the bath while she was distracted on her phone: BBC News - Northamptonshire mum jailed for killing baby son left alone in bath
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56860846

Completely tragic, but what does the jail sentence achieve? Publicity perhaps, and maybe that will help to save other lives, but otherwise I don't get it.

No, it's not ok to let infants drown in baths. It's worse still not to take any responsibility for it. The sentence is relatively light for the offence considering the comments. Deadly neglect of children needs to be discouraged, whether or not she will feel shit for life. Especially where real remorse isn't displayed, a deterrent of some sort is necessary and appropriate, both practically and morally, and per the law.

@TedImgoingmad I do agree with the 'poor' comment though, if she was rich i doubt she would have received a prison sentence.

You implied she was punished because she was black, and not because she caused the death of her child.

What has that got to do with you stating that you think I think there are no white people in prison?

I was drawing a comparison with a similar incidence of child neglect, with parents having a similar record of refusing to see their actions as such. At no point did I say, to quote you, "prisons have no white people in them".

White people make up the majority of people in this country, and therefor majority of people in prison. However, it is a well documented fact that the prosecution rate for black people is higher than that of white people. From National Statistics - Women and the criminal justice system 2017:

The prosecution rate was twice as high for Black female defendants than White female defendants and over four times higher for Black male defendants than White males. In 2017, the rate of prosecution was 2 per 1,000 population for Black female defendants 29 per 1,000 for black male defendants. Compared to 1 per 1,000 for White female defendant and 7 per 1,000 for White male defendants.

Let me just be clear, *Famousinlove" , I don't necessarily disagree with the sentence this woman has received. But I have no doubt whatsoever that class and race can buy you a let off from prosecution, never mind conviction.

She chose to leave the room to mess about on her phone. She deliberately lied to the police about this and the judge believes she has not yet accepted it's all her fault.

She didn't need to leave the bathroom to answer the front door or anything like that. Did she even need to leave the room at all?

I think, on balance, that the judge was right to send her to prison; as punishment for selfishly neglecting and endangering her child, and as an example to any other parents who think sending emojis to their mates on WhatsApp takes priority over keeping their kids safe.

I think this woman has been punished enough. She will never forget what happened. Nor will her friends and family and they will probably ostracize her. Yes she lied. Have you never told untruths an an attempt to get out of trouble? I have. Nothing is achieved by jailing her.

...other than upholding the law and telling society clearly that it's not OK to allow an infant to drown and not face up to what you did.

@waterproofed

What a tragic case. However, there’s the legal standard for gross negligence manslaughter. By leaving a tiny baby in the bath alone to use her phone, the mother voluntarily and consciously disregarded a safe standard of care which she should have known could result in her baby’s death. I don’t think she could have or should have avoided conviction on these facts.

Sentencing guidelines then determine that she had high culpability for the crime because it was particularly serious - she showed a blatant disregard for a very high risk of death resulting from her negligent behaviour.

Imposing a non-custodial sentence would contravene the sentencing guidelines.

For those who don’t agree she should be going to jail, how would you otherwise deal with offences like hers? I’m genuinely interested as I’m struggling to come up with an alternative suitable idea.

Prison is rarely a good option, awful system

She needs a hell of a lot of support to come to terms with her child's death and the fact it could have been avoided.

I'm always astonished at the responses to child neglect. Babies falling off beds etc. Aww, you had a bad day etc.
If an adult needed special needs and anyone failed to comply, then its a clear case of neglect and prosecution follows. Why is it any different for babies and children?

@FusionChefGeoff

The article I read also mentioned that she had some kind of additional / psychological needs / history (can't remember specifics) which I think makes it even worse that she's been locked up.

It was a horrific mistake possibly due to complete ignorance / low intellect and I really don't think it can be coamps red to the other examples of manslaughter.

Agreed.

If she had been honest with the police about what had happened then I would completely agree with you OP. But she lied. I'm sorry, and I feel sorry for her, but she deserves a prison sentence.

@TedImgoingmad

You implied she was punished because she was black, and not because she caused the death of her child.

What has that got to do with you stating that you think I think there are no white people in prison?

I was drawing a comparison with a similar incidence of child neglect, with parents having a similar record of refusing to see their actions as such. At no point did I say, to quote you, "prisons have no white people in them".

White people make up the majority of people in this country, and therefor majority of people in prison. However, it is a well documented fact that the prosecution rate for black people is higher than that of white people. From National Statistics - Women and the criminal justice system 2017:

The prosecution rate was twice as high for Black female defendants than White female defendants and over four times higher for Black male defendants than White males. In 2017, the rate of prosecution was 2 per 1,000 population for Black female defendants 29 per 1,000 for black male defendants. Compared to 1 per 1,000 for White female defendant and 7 per 1,000 for White male defendants.

So out of 1,000 Black female defendants, only 2 were prosecuted and you think this back up your theory?

I think what sort of person the mother is perceived to be counts for a lot with the authorities. The mother in the article linked above lost her baby son to drowning while she was out of the room cleaning a soiled mat. But a dirty mat could have waited, just as sending a whatsapp message could have waited. But one has more respectability attached than the other. Same with the mother of twins being on work calls.

I grew up on a rough council estate. I was surrounded by people who couldn't say sorry and people who would always look for blame elsewhere than themselves, because the penalty for being the one to blame would be severe, like a beating. They were raised needing to protect themselves and never appear weak. It's very different to middle class people with kind loving parents who never had to build a defensive shell. So I understand why this mother can't accept responsibility and why she's insisting the babyseat was to blame. It's the only way she can protect herself. The mothers who can openly express grief to strangers and blame themselves knowing that their loved ones will still support them are the ones who are considered to have suffered enough and sent home.

I don't think a white woman would have been convicted of this - obviously, because there have been plenty of cases and no convictions that I'm aware of. (There may be some, but the default is to not punish.) The judge just couldn't empathize with Ms Perry so he's sending her to prison when she'll be hurting as badly as all the other Mums who made a stupid mistake.

It needs to be made a massive example of and be jail time. The scary thing is... If it becomes a slap on the wrist.. How many Baby killing parents, would just sit the baby in the bath and wait.. oops I got distracted..... Not saying this is the case here at all, but it gives an open door for sickos to abuse.... On an neglectful look.. you know leaving them for 30 seconds could be death.. If you make that CHOICE why should you carry on as normal afterwards!

I think it's appropriate, she intentionally left the child alone in a dangerous place so she could do something unnecessary that she could easily have done later or in the same room and then lied to the police about it.

The baby was in a bath seat, not just sitting unsupported in a bath. When they're in bath seats and you sit with them, they look at you. When you leave the room, they look around and move making them at risk of toppling. The suctions on the bottom of the seat can wear thin and give way when the baby's weight shifts.

All of which is perfectly obvious. I don’t believe the mother could have been unaware of the risks. I will accept defences based on psychosis/temporary dissociation brought in by exhaustion. I won’t accept that someone needed to have a chat on the phone and didn’t know their baby could fall into water deep enough to drown them.

I don’t know anything about other cases, but if there are glaring inconsistencies between cases then that might be a defence. I imagine a judge would take a different view of a mother working from home who was deeply remorseful for a reason, though.

How ridiculous to bring race into this discussion. The new one if that is you do not agreed you are a white supremacist.

Did anybody asked wait a second. Was she a person of colour? Yes , oh she deserve to be in jail then. Ffs clearly negligence to leave your baby in the bath.

But a dirty mat could have waited, just as sending a whatsapp message could have waited. But one has more respectability attached than the other. Same with the mother of twins being on work calls.

Because those things have a more nurturing purpose. If you’re trying to earn money to pay for a roof over your child’s head at the same time as looking after them, it’s not the same thing as having a chat with your mate.

She needs a hell of a lot of support to come to terms with her child's death and the fact it could have been avoided

So nobody is accountable? The child’s life wasn’t actually worth anything?

@Hellocatshome

I agree it seems odd when I'm pretty sure there have been similar cases that haven't resulted in jail time.

She lied, she didn't take responsibility for her actions that lead to his death & she wasn't remorseful.

@NiceGerbil

I agree.

Unless there was ongoing neglect then this is a worrying precedent.

Parents both male and female take their eye off the ball sometimes.

Poster on here the other day had kid fall into pond at parents. What if worst had happened?

Tragic accident not criminal.

They were there, they turned around for a second & they fished him straight out.

She left the baby in the bath to send whatsapp & make a phone call. She was gone over 4 minutes.

They were apologetic, she didn't take any responsibility nor was she remorseful - just all 'didn't think it would happen (well 'allegedly' as I wasn't actually at the trial. But no one seems to dispute that).

@NiceGerbil

Comparing a mum who left a bathroom for 4 mins to a man who murders his children is out of line.

Can you really not see the difference.

Pot kettle.

Comparing grandparents who were right next to the little boy and fished him straight out, to a woman who left her baby alone in a bath for 4 minutes to make a phone call.

Can you realky not see the difference?

[quote Froggie456]@Dingleydel agreed. I guarantee if this had been a white middle class, professional, partnered/married woman then she would have not been charged and it would have been put down as a tragic accident.[/quote]
Absolutely agree with this.

The McCanns are a case in point. Middle class white couple leave 3 toddlers alone in a flat for several.hours whilst they go to dinner in a nearby restaurant and the world falls over itself to sympathise with them.

Working class black woman leaves baby in bath for 4 minutes and is jailed.

I think if baby had fallen down stairs/ rolled off the bed etc etc it might have been excusable but leaving a baby in a bath is unbelievable.

@FusionChefGeoff

The article I read also mentioned that she had some kind of additional / psychological needs / history (can't remember specifics) which I think makes it even worse that she's been locked up.

It was a horrific mistake possibly due to complete ignorance / low intellect and I really don't think it can be coamps red to the other examples of manslaughter.

It's not a mistake deliberately leaving a baby in a bath fir over 4 minutes while you puss about on your phone. That's not a tragic accident, that's wilful neglect.

A tragic accident resulting in man slaughter is something like pushing someone & they trip over, bash their head & die. Or your wet foot slipping in the brake pedal & hitting a pedestrian.