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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a jail sentence for this tragic case of neglect achieves nothing?

315 replies

QuadBod · 23/04/2021 20:32

The mum whose baby drowned in the bath while she was distracted on her phone: BBC News - Northamptonshire mum jailed for killing baby son left alone in bath
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56860846

Completely tragic, but what does the jail sentence achieve? Publicity perhaps, and maybe that will help to save other lives, but otherwise I don't get it.

OP posts:
listershologram · 24/04/2021 08:53

@AbsolutelyPatsy

she would struggle to find work after a prison sentance?
That's her issue, it doesn't mean she shouldn't have got one.
AbsolutelyPatsy · 24/04/2021 08:56

the child's death is enough punishment surely?
but perhaps there is more to it than published.

Thatisnotwhatisaid · 24/04/2021 08:57

Oh it was a horrible story. I’m assuming she thought the baby would be totally fine in his seat, she may have done it a few times before and he was always ok. Just a terrible mistake she will have to live with for the rest of her life.

AbsolutelyPatsy · 24/04/2021 08:58

apparently she had signifcant problems indentified in a psychologists report. Sad

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 24/04/2021 08:59

I’m assuming she thought the baby would be totally fine in his seat, she may have done it a few times before and he was always ok.

You might be right. Maybe she left him alone in the bath when he was three months old, or two months old, or one month old. Which is neglect.

AbsolutelyPatsy · 24/04/2021 09:21

i think the bath seats probably lull you into a false sense of security.

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 24/04/2021 09:24

I think the bath seats probably lull you into a false sense of security.

How, though? If you’re a parent of a 5 month old baby, you know they wriggle. If you watch the baby in the bath seat you know you have to keep repositioning them, or strap them in. You know your baby left alone for 4 minutes in six inches of water might drown.

notagainmummy · 24/04/2021 09:25

I can't help but think her colour and her social circumstance were a factor. Prison is grossly inappropriate in her case.

AbsolutelyPatsy · 24/04/2021 09:29

@Fieldoftheclothofgold, perhaps the girl in question did not know this, she had psychological issues apparently. perhaps she was lulled into a false sense of security.

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 24/04/2021 09:38

AbsolutelyPatsy

It’s possible. The judge didn’t seem to think there was an excuse, so I can only go by that.

OhWhyNot · 24/04/2021 09:42

In the judges summing up he references her denial in her responsibility to her baby’s death

I am not sure if she was still trying to defend herself (she had lied when in police custody about using her phone)

I think this is the reason why she is still not taking responsibility for what has happened and she is fully responsible

Would we view a father making the same tragic mistake as sympathetically or that further punishment of prison was the correct course

We are all prone to errors of judgement that isn’t a defence in law and neither should it be

I’m not so sure maybe there is some background information we are not aware of

Moomin12345 · 24/04/2021 09:45

The sentences in the uk are bizarre. Just a few months ago a guy murdered his wife of 46 years and got 5 years in prison. Angry

listershologram · 24/04/2021 09:47

@notagainmummy

I can't help but think her colour and her social circumstance were a factor. Prison is grossly inappropriate in her case.
Why is it grossly inappropriate? She decided that using WhatsApp to chat to a friend was more important than supervising her son adequately. That was no accident, it was a conscious decision.

She didn't stay in the room be used WhatsApp, she left the room. If she had stayed in the room then maybe it would be inappropriate but she intentions went where she knew she could not see her son be make sure he was safe. He paid for her gross negligence with his life.

ChekhovsWorkshoppedShooter · 24/04/2021 09:47

You may believe that case was murder Moomin, but the jury passed a verdict of manslaughter.

ForThePurposeOfTheTape · 24/04/2021 10:04

I think that the judges who didn't give other parents jail time are in the wrong here.

ForwardRanger · 24/04/2021 10:26

@OhWhyNot

In the judges summing up he references her denial in her responsibility to her baby’s death

I am not sure if she was still trying to defend herself (she had lied when in police custody about using her phone)

I think this is the reason why she is still not taking responsibility for what has happened and she is fully responsible

Would we view a father making the same tragic mistake as sympathetically or that further punishment of prison was the correct course

We are all prone to errors of judgement that isn’t a defence in law and neither should it be

I’m not so sure maybe there is some background information we are not aware of

The judge is a woman
OhWhyNot · 24/04/2021 10:34

Oops that’s my internalised sexism ...

TedImgoingmad · 24/04/2021 10:36

[quote Griefmonster]**@Famousinlove
So out of 1,000 Black female defendants, only 2 were prosecuted and you think this back up your theory?

No that's not what the statistic is showing. Criminal prosecutions are generally low in UK for women. For every 1000 white people in total (not 1000 defendants), 1 is prosecuted. But that doubles if you are black, to 2 in 1000. All low numbers as a percentage of the total population but still a significant disparity.[/quote]
Thank you, @Griefmonster I came back on this thread to respond, but you have answered @Famousinlove**

These are statistics from the Government's National Statistics Office, not me making up a figure, Famouinlove . Their summary is stark:

The prosecution rate was twice as high for Black female defendants than White female defendants

I've been studying or practising law for over 30 years. Black people - and women for that matter - being treated very differently by the Criminal Justice System is not a new fact. Class is also an issue: how many "promising young men" type professionals get to walk away without a jail sentence compared to their working class counterparts? Class and race more often than not go hand in hand. Sex is an issue: how many men are treated sympathetically for sex/violence offence because their wife/partner was somehow acting unsatisfactorily (being pregnant, being a nag etc etc)? Ask yourself how a man might have been treated in this case? I can guarantee, the very fact that he was taking on a childcare responsibility in the first place would have given him a head start, as far as his defence was concerned.

UniversitySerf · 24/04/2021 10:39

Does anyone have information on what her psychological issues are as stated that there was a report.

MarcelinesMa · 24/04/2021 10:41

MarcelinesMa
She fucked up utterly but I think her baby dying is punishment enough. She doesn’t
deserve a prison sentence on top of what is probably horrendous guilt. Yeah she lied about using her phone when she should have been supervising her baby but maybe she was ashamed about that? She called 999 straight away and tried to resuscitate him, it wasn’t like she didn’t care or tried to cover up her son’s drowning- she did all the right things to try to save him. It seems the only thing she lied about was using her phone at the time he drowned. I really hope she can appeal ASAP or at the very least her prison time flies by.

This comment is absolutely disgraceful. My mouth actually dropped open when I read it. Disgusting.

What was disgusting/disgraceful about what I said exactly? I get why people might not agree with my opinion but I don’t get the disgust or disgrace or shock Shock Hmm Confused

notagainmummy · 24/04/2021 10:44

@listershologram It's in appropriate because there was no intention to cause harm, and because she has another child/children who are now without their mother. There is nothing to be gained except punishment, and I think losing her baby is punishment enough. She was, according the the news, an adequate mother and as such wasn't neglectful under normal circumstances. People are constantly on their phones, and can usually multitask. Think of all the people risking accidents, you see every day driving and on their phones?

What is gained by imprisonment, apart from punishment? Rehabilitation, no. Protecting the public, no.

She certainly isn't the best mother in the world, but we need to show more compassion. I am sure lying to to the police was a panic reaction. She called 999 and tried to resuscitate the baby. She believed he was safe in the bath seat. She was immature but not evil.

AuntyHope · 24/04/2021 10:46

I feel like we have these parents who are deemed unlikeable and deviant people who do something terrible because they are neglectful and careless. If something bad happens they are at fault and should be punished. It's never an accident.

Then on the other hand we have these parents who are deemed likeable and virtuous/good. They don't do something terrible, something terrible happens to them because of a momentary lapse of judgement. If something bad happens they are also seen as the victims, they do not need to be punished because what their tragedy is punishment enough. It's always an accident.

Race, class, and other social and economic factors (power, respectability, etc. ) are at play here. Single parents, mental illness, poverty, unemployment, other class factors and being BAME or a migrant or refugee go against people massively in these cases. People who have been bought up to know how to talk to people in these situations will do a lot better in interview and in the stand (if they get that far) as well as being better at managing the media.

There are massive inconsistencies in the way cases like this are managed. I'm not sure whether prison is the right place or what the answer is in situations like this, but there are definitely inconsistencies in the way people are treated. And all too often the face of evil is somebody from a disadvantaged group, and the face of the "unfortunate parent" eg. The McCanns is white, middle class, and good at managing the police, media etc.

Is it really better to go on a conference call for a couple of hours than to get caught up in a social call for a few minutes? Legally these should not be treated so differently. Both are death by neglect.

Marguerite2000 · 24/04/2021 11:00

@Maggiesfarm

I don't think this poor woman should have been given a jail sentence. Obviously the judge wanted to make an example of her but, in reality, she will punish herself and suffer enough for the rest of her life. It's horrible, doesn't bear thinking about. Jailing her will not bring her poor little child back.
You're really projecting your own feelings here. It's quite possible she doesn't have those feelings. Not all parents do.
listershologram · 24/04/2021 11:04

Think of all the people risking accidents, you see every day driving and on their phones?

If they are on their phone and kill somebody then they should also be jailed.

A person has the responsibility to keep within the law and if they don't they they need to be given the punishments set down in law. If that means jail then so be it. It's awful for those other children that their mother behaved in such a way that they are now without her for the duration of her prison term but that is solely down to her poor parenting.

I do not break the law and the most influential reason for that is that I do not want to be sent to prison because I have children and elderly relatives to care for.

eekbumbler · 24/04/2021 11:08

Where were the health visitors showing how to bath baby properly. Who recommended the seat - stupid idea! I see that she denied being on phone and judge said she hadn't shown any remorse... If that was me I'd probably be trying to block out the horrific outcome and say it was an accident. Or I would probably kill myself not being able to accept and live with what happened. I'm assuming no flags were raised re baby Renzo during pregnancy or shortly afterwards. This young lady made an horrific mistake.

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