to not beleive that a women not breast feed is selfish and using 'i couldnt' as an excuse?

[aleciawalton]

im a mum of 1 who bf till 15 months, and now pregnant with second and will bf. i also am a breast friend and took training to support mums who are bfeeding. ( learned how milk is produced, history, attachment...)

i just think that too many women use 'i couldnt bf' as an excuse. its only been in the last 50 to 60 years bottles and formula have been around. what happened back then??? did more then 50% of the babys die? no cuase back then 99% women breast fed! why could they do it then and not now???
i just feel it a cop out and the mums are just being selfish.
yes its hard, but so was labour, so raising a kid. however they choise to have the baby. i know it takes time and comittment and not having that all important wine drink. but i personaly think that its for how long??? if i can give my child the best start and yes it can take a year or 2 but is my child not worth it??
if some one said to you while prego you have a choise to either have your baby and make your child as healthy as it can be or just have the baby, what would you want? why do we give the baby vitamine K, if not to help the baby be healthy. would you not get your baby vaccinated?

sorry just makes me mad. when i hear my nipples hurt and thats cant be normal so i stopped. or babys 3 weeks old and wanted feeding all the time so it ment i didnt have enough milk so i stopped. or there's a xmas party i want to go to so im not going to bf. the exuces go one. i really love the one 'bf is not natural, its disusting'. WTF were breast made for then and why does milk come out of them???

perhaps this could just be chalked up now to a very very mis judged OP... ?

Its clear that the OP has very strong views on this, which I do not personally agree with. I completely understand the offense that has been caused. I also fully respect every one who has posted with their own views and stories, hopefully this will jog the OP into the real world as far as the mis informed i'll educated rant of an OP goes... and this will be the last of this kind..

However, i DO think it a shame that she now feels she cannot post here. You know how sensitive you can feel when you are 'preggo'

perhaps on this occasion, we could all just let this go... re-educate and enable her to feel she really can continue to post here?

and AW: please dont expect to always start a thread, with ot without a controversial OP such as this, and to be agreed with always... you will always get people who agree, adn disagree with your views. MNet is a good reflection on RL... there is a vast and widely ranging demographic here, and all posters each bring with them something different. It IS what makes it such a great place to be.

I realize my opening sentence is more than a bit of an understatement....

Hmm I don't think it's so much her view that has caused the frenzy - lots of uninformed people feel the same as she does and usually it's shrugged off; what I feel is extremely detrimental about the OP, is that she claims to be a BF counsellor. Which she patently isn't. And by claiming to be one and stating the views that she has, she is liable to put lots and lots of women off going to a BF counsellor and she is adding to the "they're all judgemental harpies" myth, which is so damaging to all breastfeeding mothers who need help. That's what strikes me most about the OP.

vgp littlebella

Somehow I think maybe we got our point across to the OP. So many posters have 'justified' why they didn't breastfeed (although I don't think they should have had to!)
The OP hasn't been back since.

"lots of uninformed people feel the same as she does and usually it's shrugged off"
do you think so LB?
I don't hear them, tbh.
they are certainly not on this thread and they are certainly not on mumsnet either.
every time something like this is ventured on mn, the poster is absolutely kicked to death.

why is this thread still going? clearly the OP is not a 'breast friend' or whatever it's called, nor is she anything remotely connected with mothers and babies. She is a bored troll and is having a good laugh as we write. Just kill the thread so she will fuck off. She is a moron - end of.

really harpsi? I've not been around that long - does this topic have lots of very heavy previous?

Actually - der to self about that. in RL it's been a.. delicate subject.

dare i say it without offence but maybe she only meant those who generally could bf but chose not to?
i bf my baby and i would say 80% of my friends do not. all produced milk, one said her boobs were too big, one said it was unnatural as boobs were for sex and one said she did not want saggy breasts (though recently proved it is pregnancy that causes sagginess and not bf).
so i think she may have been talking about that small minority who can bf but do not want to for any reason.
i hope this has not caused offence as i am not one for being arguementative!!!

v interestin bethoo.
One does tend to reduce the world to 'the people I know' - and here in poor(ish) -guardian-reader-land everyone talks the bf talk.
It's v good to get a bigger picture - not sure exactly where that leaves me re the OP, now.

Hi there, dont often post on hee but do often come and browse. But felt I needed to post on this post as I feel the op is being very unfair!!!

I am a mother of 1 19 month old and I was gutted that I was unable to breastfeed her. I so desperately wanted to but after 2 days in hospital still unable to the midwives and I decided it would be faired on me and te baby t forula feed, especially after I tried to pump some off so she could be breastfed but in a bottle but was unable to pump any off!! Comments like that really dont help mums who already feel bad about it.

bethoo, unfortunately not, before she scarpered she said "i know woem who have with premies even 16 weeks early. ones who had cesections and didnt see baby for 24 hours, ones that had to have surgury later, ones whose nipples went black, bleed, got sores, mastitis (more then once), had no support or even had some one give baby bottle with out them knowing. i personaly had nipples went black, bleed, got sores, mastitis (more then once), had no support and cried in pain and wanted to stop and had my MIL telling me how gross i was for doing it. i know it can be very hard."
She really does think that anyone who doesnt manage to breastfeed is selfish or lazy
Well, she did, I'm still hoping this thread helped to change her mind!

vs - oh, i must not have read that part then. that is pretty harsh and a bit egotistical of her really!

Also, can I say to all of those on here that feel the need to justify themselves, don't bother.
Come [http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/1364/422749?stamp=071114112755 here]] and share, tons of people have gone through awful times with feeding, no-one should judge any of you.

damn here

Going by what the OP seems to consider makes a good mother, I must be a saint.

I knew before I was even pregnant that I wouldn't be able to b/f....but I tried anyway.

Would you like to kiss my ring?

I have not read all of this thread, just the initial post, so appologies if I'm repeating what has already been said. Before I had my dd I didn't even entertain the idea that I would not bf - my mum bf 5 of us and it just seemed like the natural thing to do.

My experience after she was born however was totally unexpected - she struggled to latch, almost pulled 1 of my nipples off so that I couldn't feed on 1 side for 8 weeks (mw was shocked by state of it), lost loads of weight, all of which culminated in me mixed feeding - getting up every 2 hours in the night to express (both from damaged breast and other) to try to increase supplies etc etc. I battled on (making myself, my dp and everyone miserable) for 16 weeks and then dd simply refused 1 day to latch and no matter what I tried that was it. I continued expressing, and trying to bf for about a week after this before giving up.

You have no idea how much of a failure I felt, how much I beat myself up about it and how traumatic it was for all of us. I feel now that I missed out on a wonderful part of my dds earliest days because I was so hung up on bf.

I am now pg with no 2 and intend to give bf my best shot, but this time if I cannot do it I will not beat myself up.

I attended NCT and NHS antenatal classes and accessed all the bf helplines etc so you cannot say I didnt try. In my opinion, smug people like you should not be bf counsellors because you can never have any understanding of or even simpathy for people who cant but really want to. You have really upset me with your attitude. (PS sorry for such a long rant).

Thread here for people with ideas of how to make bf support better in the future

at your complete lack of understanding of why people can't bf. Also at your smugness after just 1 child

'what happened back then' is that the rich had nurse maids to feed babies for them and the poor used cups to feed cows milk to their infants if they couldn't bf.

I like so many people have already said, struggled to bf. What is more selfish, making your DH, baby and self unhappy just to say 'I bf' or to decide to stop to make everyone happy.

My dd was ex bf for 5 wks, I had a difficult birth, emcs, got crap advice in hospital, tried expressing and non stop feeding on occasions for 13-14 hours with maybe 4 15min breaks in between. I was exhausted and this manifested in PND which lasted for 12mths. If I had continued my family may have split up, DH was so unhappy he almost left (although he didn't say this until I was recovered). Being selfish is not recognising what is best for EVERYONE

Like many I tried continual feeding, expressing etc which was unsuccessful. I could bf for 2-3hrs and then dd would wolf down a 5oz bottle of formula, so no, I definately did not have enough milk or she would not be crying continually or taking that amount from a bottle on top of bf.

Its people like you who make women who fail feel ashamed and worthless, when in fact its you that should be ashamed of your lack of insight and understanding, especially in your role as a breast buddy.

That sounds horrible and familiar C4it, it often seems as though if you are struggling with b'feeding, that when you switch to formula, you are taking the easy way out, but it is a bloody nightmare to be trying to b'feed each time yr baby is hungry, failing to, and then expressing each time so that you have enough milk and you keep your supply up, and then have to do all the sterilising stuff, to keep that up for 16 weeks is amazing (I only managed about 8)and you should never have to feel like a failure, when you tried so hard to do the bestfor your dd. Good luck with no 2.

Quite a few of my friends just didn't want to persevere through the pain barrier, so they stopped, and some just didn't want to. I guess they must be in the minority.

harpsi, no I meant in rl. I hear this sort of sentiment expressed occasionally and usually no-one takes issue with it - perhaps because so many mothers are so badly supported, that they are still struggling with their feelings too much to challenge people who say this sort of thing.

I had to take morphine whilst I was pregnant. I had NO choice. I had my DD early, and she was monitored for morphine withdrawal. After being heartbroken and racked with guilt that she was in this situation, I was heart broken at the thought i would not be able to breast feed. It was all I had wanted to do.

However, The consultants and matrons and other staff in the NNU all very much encouraged and supported me into breast feeding my dd, despite taking morphine. The amount i was taking and the amount secreted in Breast milk is so unbelievably minimal ( when taken in therapeutic doses, not abused) it is safe to do. It would also provide her with a natural withdrawal, should she need it. hence the encouragement. Fortunately she didn't have any signs of withdrawal, and very few signs if any, of any dependancy.

I was a NNU nurse and had regularly looked after babies who were withdrawing from drugs, resulting form maternal drug abuse. THis is not what i had done. BUt I felt SO SO guilty that I had had to take such levels of morphine, I had NO choice as i had a prolapsed disc, severe SPD and complications with my arthritis. It was the prolapsed disc which caused the most problems, and i could not even get up to pee in the end.

Guilt does not even cover the emotions I felt. I was SO incredibly fortunate, that i was given immense support to feed DD, despite her teeny size and lack of ability to feed herself. She was tube fed initially, and offered my breast for almost 3 weeks before she got the hang of it.

Was I selfish to actually breast feed as a few individuals made me feel? NO, i wasnt. I did the right thing. My DD did NOT have a morphine dependancy due to me br/f her. She still feeds from me, and I still have to take morphine. I feed her about 3 times a day now, no where near as much ( obviously) as i did until she was weaned. She has NO side effects from the reduction in milk, therefore reduction in any morphine she may have been getting from my milk... She was NOT dependent. I was unbelievably judged by many MW and other staff, for taking the decision TO feed her. This was I think, balanced almost by the amount of support i DID get.

I now know i did exactly the RIGHT thing.

It is SUCH an incredibly emotive subject. There are no judgments to be made. No-one can ever fully understand a mothers decision ( be it choice or necessity ) to br/f or not to bf/f, no-one, unless they are that woman. what people CAN understand, is that there ARE a variety of reasons mums do and dont feed, and it is these decisions that need to be supported.

Its truly horrifying to hear SO many terrible experiences, and so many of them may have been helped by better support form the professionals in hospital prior to discharge. I dont believe at all that there are so many 'crap' midwives, NNU nurses, the list goes on... I DO believe that there are many many departments which are so severely short staffed, that the staff who are there just physically dont have the time to devote as much care and attention to their patients as many of them would want to. you only have to ask them this to find it to be true...
trust me

ALL these mummys ( posting here) and babies were severely let down by a very oversubscribed under funded , system of woman and child health care... It is things such as this which REALLY need to change. The rest, I am certain, and hopeful will follow.