To think most parents don't really give a crap about this...

[reaching0ut]

....as long as their kid isn't the one being bullied or ostracised? I think at some point when everything is rosy many parents profess to feel this way, but actually they're totally oblivious or thanking their lucky stars that it's not their child coming home in tears, not sleeping, eating and feeling generally worthless and hopeless.

But that might be a long sign....

@EeeByeGummieBear

My son was the lonely kid in the cafeteria once. It broke my heart the number of parents I spoke to in the playground asking if they would encourage their kid to include mine- to no effect. I don't care how well their kids are doing at school/ what fantastic parents evening they had. It's meaningless.

Well, it isn’t meaningless to many people, it’s hugely important. It’s a bit unfair to say you don’t care how well their kids are doing at school, which they might well care about enormously, but you do expect them to care about how your child is doing socially.

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

Yes, this would be important to me. My DS is a very empathic child. It would worry him if he thought another child was feeling isolated and lonely, and I'm proud of him for caring. That's more important to me than academic achievement.

Being caring doesn't give you a spot in your chosen school or chosen job and doesn't pay the bills 🤷

I'm conflicted on this type of message. Yes, kids should be kind but there is no need to pressure them into being the saviours of every child that might be struggling. It immediately creates an imbalance in the friendship if one child is considered lucky that the other has chose to sit with him at lunch

Absolutely this. Pressuring children to look after anyone and everyone is toxic positivity #bekind bullshit. It's unreasonable in all directions.

Yes, this would be important to me. My DS is a very empathic child. It would worry him if he thought another child was feeling isolated and lonely, and I'm proud of him for caring. That's more important to me than academic achievement

You're happy that your child worries about other people and think him worrying is a good thing and is more important than his academic future? Wow. That's not parenting to be proud of.

You're happy that your child worries about other people and think him worrying is a good thing and is more important than his academic future? Wow. That's not parenting to be proud of

Its actually quite hard work. I was that lonely kid. The teachers thinking they are doing you a favour by getting others to play with you, well actually all I did for me was put me in the position of having to pretend I didn't know exactly what was going on. And it me me responsible for everyone else's feelings if I wasn't grateful enough. Made things worse tbh

I don't expect them to try to be the saviour of every lost soul, but our family mottos are 'proceed with kindness' and 'don't be a dick' so I'm sure that's covered in there somewhere

I would like my children to try and do well at school and be kind to others. It doesn't need to be one or the other.

I think there is actually a danger in teaching our DC (especially girls) that being “kind” is the most important thing. They may not want to speak out against things or challenge people in case it offends or is seen as “unkind”.
Some people use “be kind” to silence dissent

I tried to be the kind kid at school. It was very heavily encouraged by teachers as I was a girl, with no difficulty learning.
It was shit. The kid became very possessive, disruptive with my own other friendships and entitled to my attention, with a heavy dose of self-pity.
My mum gave me 'absolution' to cut ties without guilt and that changed my time at school for the better.

@theleafandnotthetree
I guess most people think that their kid is “gifted” if he/she is (or they think they are) in the top2/3 of their class.

Of course, in real life, being in the top 10% of the the population isn’t “academically gifted” it’s simply called being quite clever/bright.

The “gifted” nonsense is just a knock on consequence of the “gifted/talented” drive, to push the brightest kids harder in the state system.

@Fololomolo

The problem is that it is sometimes too much pressure for a young child to be inclusive and befriend someone they don’t really want to play with. My 6 year old befriended a new boy in the class who had no friends. and ended up so stressed himself he developed tics and had anxiety about going to school. The new boy was constantly insisting he played with him and my child was too polite to say no and ended up sad he could no longer play with his old friends. It was also complicated by the child’s mother thinking her son had found a great new friendship and constantly trying to arrange play dates. It was very stressful for us all and took a couple of years to settle down.

That happened to DN - who had their issues phyiscal ivolving operations and family break down related. Any attempt to distance herself at school and they got told off and every outside group this child joined so they eventually stopped.

It badly impacted on DN and took ages to sort.

I also find these message are aimed at my DD not so much DS - and I don't want them getting idea the idea are everyone else's support human to their own determent.

Plus academics is how DH and I got the house and lfiestyle - it's modest compared to MN standards but better than most we grew up with. Our kids won't inherit money and while it's certainly possible not to be academic and get a well paid job there is a link - and my children will need to be able to support themselves as adults.

I teach my children to be polite and considerate of others but I think emotional blackmail like this is extremely unhelpful.

@BettysCardigan

I don't expect them to try to be the saviour of every lost soul, but our family mottos are 'proceed with kindness' and 'don't be a dick' so I'm sure that's covered in there somewhere

And 'Don't be a dick' pretty much covers it doesn't it? Some of the posters here, when not telling us how academically gifted their children are, fall over themselves to say how actively kind and empathetic they are, as if it's just another badge of honour. I imagine their children with beatific smiles on their faces dispensing their kindness to those less fortunate. Children are just people, most of them mixed enough like us all with the full range of good and bad human emotions, though dispensed in different ways according to personality, family culture and expectations. We would like if they would actively stand up for those who are dowtrodden or being treated badly but realistically just not adding to pile on is as much as we can usually hope for. How many adults have the qualities we are talking about here?

Like most things, it's a lot more complex that some sanctimonious little meme that someone can post on Twitter for likes. Kindness is important. So are boundaries. Education is important. So are hobbies and down time. The right balance between all of these things is different for every child (and adult).

But that wouldn't get many likes on Twitter.

I wouldn't want my child to think it is his responsibility to save every single child with no friends. Empathy is encouraged but friendships should be formed based on the common interests rather than obligations. Also it is not either or with the academic achievements. What a strange thought

Yy hey

And shy being a character flaw instead if just being a personality. Shy and quiet is perfectly fine whenever someone is needed to act as a buffer for disruption In class. But the rest of the time you are a class project being teamed up with other louder children to try amd change who you are.

I like to think my children are both. We tend to think my DD struggles a bit socially but another mum (whose daughter has autism) was saying her DD misses my DD now they are not allowed to play together on the yard because they are in different classes (Covid). So what I've seen as struggling with the group dynamics in class can also be seen as "plays well one on one".
It is easier to teach academics than kindness as a parent. We put aside time for reading / homework / learning support. We don't have a 15 minute slot on a Thursday for being kind, we have to look out for the teachable moments, which inevitably will come while we are trying to do something else!

@theleafandnotthetree I find it covers almost every eventuality in life.

When you have a decision to make stop and think 'is there a way for me not to be a dick here?' and if there is, choose that.

That's what I tell the kids anyway...

My lesson to DN and DS is always be kind to yourself first and if you don’t want to sit with someone, or be someone’s friend, then be strong enough to say no. A lot of teachers force well behaved girls to be responsible for a badly behaved children or to ‘take care of’ shy kids even in private schools. I have made it clear to the school that I don’t want DD involved in this.

My daughter - academically very bright, and always good at making friends - has been brought up by us to be kind and inclusive. We always discouraged the "best friend" thing and encouraged her to be friends with everyone. She was always quick to take new girls under her wing (her primary school class had a high turnover). She started doing the same when she went to high school - she drew into her friendship group a girl who had moved to our town and didn't know anyone at the school. Her reward? To be bullied and "Wendied" out of her friendship group by the new girl, whom DD had encouraged her other friends to befriend. Her other friends did nothing to stick up for her.

Kindness is overrated. Especially when it's encouraged to the detriment of your own boundaries and well being. It's particularly insidious when applied to girls, who are conditioned to be kind, and punished (in the sense of social approbation) much more than boys who are not kind. That sort of boundary trampling kindness and obligation leeches into other relationships, especially romantic ones. The "be kind" message is being heavily pushed to the current generation of young girls in ways that I find sinister.

Some kids might just want to be alone.

As a child at primary and secondary I always found the worst thing was attention being drawn to me being alone often in a well meaning way.

I was a lot happier when I discovered the library at secondary - soemwhere it was deemed acceptable to be alone.

I did have friends but was in different streams and classes to them. I think DS has a similar problem at secondary - his friends are in different sets and classes so it's a task to find them - he was happier when mobiles were allowed at break and lunch as was DD1 who had a friendship group - because on occaions they were by themseleves they could look at their phone and it was deemded not worthy of comment. They did away with phones saying the children needed to interact at break and lunchtimes socially - the can't access library and there are no clubs that run so it really is enforcing social interaction.

We live in a world that values academic skills over every other skill. I came across a book about this recently: Head, Hand, Heart or similar that was about how there'll be a shift towards caring jobs and manual skills. Ironically, I don't have the brain capacity to read it. 😁 But I worry about my eldest who's not doing well at school. However kind and caring he is, this is not what the world wants/success gets measured by.

[quote BettysCardigan]@theleafandnotthetree I find it covers almost every eventuality in life.

When you have a decision to make stop and think 'is there a way for me not to be a dick here?' and if there is, choose that.

That's what I tell the kids anyway...[/quote]
Agreed! The other one I like is 'what if everyone did this?' as a brake on what can be seen as unacceptable or even just mildly selfish behaviours. Like it is fun no question to jump and splash loudly into the pool but it would be chaos and unpleasant if everyone did it. Which is not to say I never let them do it, but maybe just the once or twice in a session . Perfection is impossible and almost certainly joyless but we should all of us try to be on the 'not a dick' end of the spectrum.

Around us, those who've made it and got the best careers are also those with the best social skills. Indeed that's why private schools place such a huge emphasis on them. It's really not that hard to sort out academics - most kids who are smart enough pick them up and if not parents can just get them a tutor. However, social skills, the ability to put everyone at ease, being inclusive but not at the expense of your own needs/agenda, ability to get on with everyone and make everyone feel good is invaluable.

I think some parents care about both but lots of parents don't and MN has lots of the latter who unwittingly give themselves away on threads. It's one of the fascinating aspects of anonymous forums. The ones that don't care will dress up that selfishness or exclusiveness or (sometimes) bullying as teaching their DC some other life lesson.

But everyone can see the DCs who are unkind regardless of what memes or quotes their parents spout when they think it will get them brownie points.

One of my proudest moments as a parent was when a mum of a pupil new to the school took me aside to say DD had been so kind and welcoming to her DD; how she'd found the school so unfriendly but DD had been there to catch her and buoy her up any time she felt sad.