To think there is too much pressure to formula feed?

[daffodilsandprimroses]

I’ve been considering making this post for a while but was worried about being flamed - I probably will be.

I am definitely not speaking to or about the women who made a choice to formula feed, either from the start or after trying breastfeeding and deciding it wasn’t for them.

I am talking about the women like me who really wanted to breastfeed and tried.

I found the midwives were very quick to leap to pushing formula once breastfeeding wasn’t working. When ds lost weight after birth rather than helping support me to feed him we were put on a feeding plan involving formula.

Why is there no support for breastfeeding?

YABU.

The midwife’s goal is a healthy baby. If formula is needed to meet that goal then that is rightly what they’ll suggest. There have been too many cases where a parent has been pushed to or insisted on attempting to EBF when it clearly isn’t working and babies have really suffered, some ending in tragedies.

Feeding the baby comes first, feeding wishes and goals are secondary. It’s painful if you’re unable to feed baby in the way you’d hoped and planned to, but a healthy baby is what they’re focused on.

I found quite the opposite, EBF was pushed at all costs. Even when it was very clear to me it wasn’t working or going to be possible.

@LavenderLollies

YABU.

The midwife’s goal is a healthy baby. If formula is needed to meet that goal then that is rightly what they’ll suggest. There have been too many cases where a parent has been pushed to or insisted on attempting to EBF when it clearly isn’t working and babies have really suffered, some ending in tragedies.

Feeding the baby comes first, feeding wishes and goals are secondary. It’s painful if you’re unable to feed baby in the way you’d hoped and planned to, but a healthy baby is what they’re focused on.

I found quite the opposite, EBF was pushed at all costs. Even when it was very clear to me it wasn’t working or going to be possible.

I think that’s the issue though - why doesn’t breastfeeding work for so many women in the UK but not in other countries? Why isn’t it possible?

I think it’s a combination of factors - poor training, a stretched NHS who can’t dedicate the time or bed to a week’s worth of breastfeeding support and a unrealistic view of breastfeeding to expectant mothers. And arguably, formula being used as the magic solution to all issues - weight loss, poor sleep, cluster feeding and so on.

Just to add - choosing not to breastfeed is absolutely valid, bodily autonomy is really important. And also, medical reasons for being unable to breastfeed are sad but a different issue. This thread is specifically about the lack of support available to those who might have been able to breastfeed otherwise and were sold formula as a solution.

the midwifes goal is a healthy baby

And clearly I wished my son to be malnourished

@daffodilsandprimroses

the midwifes goal is a healthy baby

And clearly I wished my son to be malnourished

And it’s kind of arguable anyway because actually, a Midwife’s goal is a healthy baby, within a very restrictive time frame because there isn’t the time or money or space in caseloads to give everyone the best support.

I feel like there is massive pressure to breastfeed, but the moment there are breastfeeding issues formula is pushed, and the moment their are issues with formula feeding it's Mums fault for not breastfeeding. It's always Mum who gets blamed whatever goes wrong, not that children's centres, health visiting, midwifery are all being stripped to the barest bones and breastfeeding support is minimal and volunteer based, lactation consultants very expensive, not enough support for new parents. Damned if you do and dammed if you don't.

I believe it’s been shown that one of the biggest factors in length of time breastfeeding is paid maternity leave. The UK lags behind other developed countries in this respect. The outlier is the US (high bf rates, rubbish maternity leave) because they have a big pumping culture and also because there is a lot of (imho misleading) marketing about how bad formula is compared with breast milk.

One interesting question is what rate of breastfeeding we want? The countries with the highest rates are those where women don’t have a choice and presumably no one wants that. I suspect most women prefer not to EBF for 12 months but there is a significant minority who would like to. Those are the women who should be supported.

Yes absolutely, when I said I planned on breastfeeding most people went on to say "but if it doesn't work out" and started getting bottles and formula "just in case". I think the expectation is that most women will fail which really not helpful. I think most women can if they are given the right support and help.

*suggested getting bottles I meant

Feeding the baby comes first, feeding wishes and goals are secondary

See, this is exactly the problem women are up against: feeding my infant with my human breast milk at the breast isn’t a ‘goal or wish’ it’s nature, I created life and part of that is feeding them at the breast, since were mammals.

How ridiculous to suggest it’s because of some personal goal.

Do you say that when you see puppies feeding at the nipple? Do you shout over the fence at gorillas feeding their young that ‘well done on fulfilling your goal’?

the expectation is that most women will fail which really not helpful

Yes, this.

I agree with you.

My first baby wasn't gaining weight and the health visitors said I had to use formula. As pp have said, it was the beginning of the end. It contributed to my PND for sure.

Second time round, my health visitor said the same thing and was pretty stern with me, as if I was deliberately starving my baby for a laugh. I was lucky enough to see a lactation consultant JUST before lockdown last year, which really helped me to stick at it (still nursing a 15 month old as I can't seem to wean her off now that I've had enough!). We were having weight loss issues but didn't need to use formula in the end, thanks to decent support.

Research shows that mothers are more likely to continue breastfeeding if they use donated breast milk while they get feeding established. I appreciate that getting hold of it right now might not be easy, but it was never even suggested with my two babies.

There's also other ways of formula feeding which are less likely to negatively impact the breastfeeding relationship, like supplemental nursing systems, and paced bottle feeding. Again, no mention from HCP when I was struggling. I only know about these because of the lactation consultant.

It's shite! Why can't decent infant feeding knowledge be part of their training?!

@Tittie Why can't decent infant feeding knowledge be part of their training?!

I'd settle for them just knowing when they're out of their depth and referring on to someone who knows what they're talking about. It's fine for HCP to have specialisms and to not know everything about everything, but it bugs me that in the postpartum period parents are frequently given "authoritative" advice from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

@Crabbyboot

Yes absolutely, when I said I planned on breastfeeding most people went on to say "but if it doesn't work out" and started getting bottles and formula "just in case". I think the expectation is that most women will fail which really not helpful. I think most women can if they are given the right support and help.

I definitely agree with this. When my baby was born I had a huge amount of help from my MIL , who had been a midwife. She told me that with the right support almost every woman can, if she wishes, successfully breastfeed. It meant I went into it with a really positive mindset. And when we had tricky moments, she was there to offer practical support and to reassure me that we would get through it and it would eventually be easy. That was very true, and gave me the encouragement to push through.

I think I would have found it much harder if I’d had people saying ‘just switch to formula’ instead.

We were having weight loss issues but didn't need to use formula in the end, thanks to decent support

One of the best bits of advice I got when having weight loss issues was that if there are any real medical causes- metabolic disease for example, those issues will still be there with formula, and in fact formula may artificially boost weight temporarily and mask the issue.

Instead I was given lots of advice on feeding, what to eat, and referred to paeds for blood tests and a general check. That pretty much rules everything serious out, and left is with, as we suspected, a small, energetic baby, but a perfectly normal one. Just not “average” in terms of growth.

Fwiw, This was all from my male HV, who I found spoke a lot more sense than any m/w or other medical professional. He had a policy of not weighing babies as well, because any decent medic can tell by examining them if they were unwell or dehydrated, and weighing just induced anxiety and people switched to formula.

@Micah

We were having weight loss issues but didn't need to use formula in the end, thanks to decent support

One of the best bits of advice I got when having weight loss issues was that if there are any real medical causes- metabolic disease for example, those issues will still be there with formula, and in fact formula may artificially boost weight temporarily and mask the issue.

Instead I was given lots of advice on feeding, what to eat, and referred to paeds for blood tests and a general check. That pretty much rules everything serious out, and left is with, as we suspected, a small, energetic baby, but a perfectly normal one. Just not “average” in terms of growth.

Fwiw, This was all from my male HV, who I found spoke a lot more sense than any m/w or other medical professional. He had a policy of not weighing babies as well, because any decent medic can tell by examining them if they were unwell or dehydrated, and weighing just induced anxiety and people switched to formula.

Absolutely. The lactation consultant did say that she felt that HCP, herself included, can be a bit obsessed with the charts, and that it was important to take a step back and look at the baby sometimes. Mine is still petite and I do suspect that if there had actually been weigh in clinics running, that they'd have said she still wasn't gaining quick enough in the early months. But the GP said she looked fine, she was still chunky, energetic, meeting milestones, so...🤷‍♀️

I had the opposite. Couldn't feed and had lots of support. Never was able to but they really tried.

@Tittie 'There's also other ways of formula feeding which are less likely to negatively impact the breastfeeding relationship, like supplemental nursing systems, and paced bottle feeding. Again, no mention from HCP when I was struggling. I only know about these because of the lactation consultant.'

I totally agree. I remember the exact moment I lost all faith in the system. I had been provided with a supplemental nursing system when DS was a few months old by the (very good) hospital I had had him at. I was visited by two 'breastfeeding support' nurses from the HV team (who had used the term 'experts' to describe themselves in their first visit when DS was born) and I told them that I had been provided with an SNS by the hospital.

They looked at each other and one asked the other if she has heard of this. They both said they they hadn't. I was then asked to show it to them and explain how it worked. These were apparently the most knowledgeable breastfeeding support workers in my district and this was after months of what I suspected at the time, but know for a fact now was utterly shit and damaging advice.

@PaperMonster
Not to say all bf specialists are good of course. But the midwives and HCAs we saw were all absolutely useless, parroted non evidence based myths and gave very dangerous incorrect advice which almost led to our son being brain damaged as they were unable to pick up on or even recognise the existence of low supply. It was all ‘keep going it’s hard but don’t give up, don’t give into formula’ and so forth.

I know there are private lactation consultants but our experience with bf support put us off and I’m glad now we didn’t go down that route as by the time we could have considered it we’d finally been diagnosed with insufficient supply by a knowledgeable friendly doctor and recognised the problem wasn’t actually that I was just doing it all wrong.

@Streamlinerose

Feeding the baby comes first, feeding wishes and goals are secondary

See, this is exactly the problem women are up against: feeding my infant with my human breast milk at the breast isn’t a ‘goal or wish’ it’s nature, I created life and part of that is feeding them at the breast, since were mammals.

How ridiculous to suggest it’s because of some personal goal.

Do you say that when you see puppies feeding at the nipple? Do you shout over the fence at gorillas feeding their young that ‘well done on fulfilling your goal’?

Not sure where you’re going with this to be honest, but yes most women go into parenting with an idea of how they’d like to feed their baby, some hope to be able to EBF. Some plan to use formula from the start. Some are happy to see how it goes and don’t mind either way. Your own strong feelings about wanting to bf because it’s natural (which... well, there are plenty of things which are natural and undesirable, for example some people not making enough milk) meant bf was your goal, right? You didn’t just go into it not minding either way, which is equally valid.

I don't understand why/ how your DP gave the baby a bottle when he was less than an hour old?

I bf both of mine for 6 months and found my midwives (in two different areas) to be really helpful. I think they were also really helpful to the ff women on my ward. There was no judgement either way which surprised me given everything you read.

What I will say is that I find some of the bf support groups to be very dogmatic, tbh. They would have you believe that exclusive bf is the only way, no dummies, no bottles, no middle ground which is absolute bollocks. This all or nothing attitude is what puts a lot of women off.

Not sure where you’re going with this to be honest, but yes most women go into parenting with an idea of how they’d like to feed their baby, some hope to be able to EBF. Some plan to use formula from the start. Some are happy to see how it goes and don’t mind either way. Your own strong feelings about wanting to bf because it’s natural (which... well, there are plenty of things which are natural and undesirable, for example some people not making enough milk) meant bf was your goal, right? You didn’t just go into it not minding either way, which is equally valid.

I guess the point that poster was making was that it’s a bit shitty to suggest that some women persevere with breastfeeding because they put their ‘breastfeeding goal’ ahead of the wellbeing of their baby. You wouldn’t say to a formula feeding woman ‘you’re putting your goal of formula feeding ahead of the wellbeing of your baby’ (or at least, you shouldn’t!).

Framing any feeding decision as one which is selfish and to do with the desires of the mother rather than the wellbeing of the baby is a horrible thing to do. Everyone is trying to do the best thing for their baby, and language about personal goals etc is judgmental and unhelpful.

The attitude that women are being selfish for wanting to EBF doesn't help either and really contradicts the breast is best message.

I guess the point that poster was making was that it’s a bit shitty to suggest that some women persevere with breastfeeding because they put their ‘breastfeeding goal’ ahead of the wellbeing of their baby.

Sadly it does happen. For the record I absolutely don’t judge the women in that situation, there is relentless pressure from the moment you’re pregnant to breastfeed, nonstop messaging about ‘giving baby the best’, overt statements that formula is inferior, so that pressure to bf isn’t coming from nowhere. But it does happen. I spend time in a lot of infant feeding spaces and it’s not uncommon at all for there to be a baby who is failing to thrive or becoming quite poorly EBF with a mother who is adamant that under no circumstances will she ‘give up’ and use formula. Often encouraged by a chorus of people saying yeah, don’t give in. Eventually there is medical intervention due to baby becoming so poorly it’s clinically necessary to supplement ASAP (often an emergency admission), or the baby’s parents do finally come to realise that although they wanted badly to EBF it’s not in their baby’s interests to continue. Not saying that’s the case for OP but that’s why I made the point that a midwife’s goal is a healthy baby, the wishes and goals of their parents are secondary to that. As it should be. So if supplementation is necessary or indicated, and the parent feels that isn’t the case, it can feel like they’re pushing formula unnecessarily. Especially if they’re getting a lot of encouragement in online spaces just to keep EBF, from people without the relevant medical training or current info on what’s going on with the baby.

It’s not a personal failing. It’s a consequence of the relentless breast is best messaging.

‘Goals and wishes’ isn’t intended to be judgmental by the way. Everyone I know had a goal for how they hoped to be able to feed their baby. Not all were able to achieve it for various reasons, but I don’t know anyone who gave birth without having given the feeding of their infant any thought.

@SnuggyBuggy

The attitude that women are being selfish for wanting to EBF doesn't help either and really contradicts the breast is best message.

It’s not selfish to want to EBF. It can become selfish if baby is suffering EBF and their parents are unwilling to supplement. But that isn’t a slight on their often exhausted, afraid and desperate parent. It’s a consequence of the breast is best messaging (which absolutely should be fought against, it’s a topic for another thread imo but breast isn’t always best and that idea leads to a lot of issues re maternal mental wellbeing and infant physical wellbeing). You can’t possibly say any one method is universally best. It isn’t, it depends on the parent child dyad, their wishes, wellbeing, health, abilities, resources, hopes, support.