To insist my staff have childcare in place?

[willandgrace]

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

@Sansaplans

But OP seems to be looking to the future, mid June it is anticipated most things will be reopening and guidance is likely to change from WFH if you can, so employers can ask employees to come back in. Childcare is permitted to open now, aside from wraparound care which no doubt will by next academic year at the latest, but if people cannot secure any childcare now, I'm not sure how these places are financially supporting themselves and whether they will ever reopen; probably time to re-evaluate plans.

Lots of them have closed

I think a lot of people are being very idealistic/naive about:
a) where the balance of power lies between most people and their employer right now, as we sit in huge economic turmoil that is likely to get worse before it gets better. Frankly, most employers are going to be much more able to recruit new people than most people are going to be to find a new job, so saying that people will quit isn't the trump card people seem to be presenting it as.
b) the extent to which employers are likely to feel that they should be grateful to employees with childcare problems for doing their best, rather than thinking how annoying and inconvenient their employees with young children are for them compared to their colleagues without them. I'm the only one on my immediate team with young children and my boss really did try to be understanding and flexible when nurseries shut but she definitely thinks that I owe her rather than the other way round (even though I made myself quite ill working full-time around a toddler, while pregnant) and I don't think she's unusual. She'd have no sympathy at all if I'd willingly chosen to prolong the situation when nurseries were open.

I'm not saying that either of these things should be the case or are good things, but I am saying that people are being a bit blind to the relatively weak position employees are in here in most situation (obviously it's different if there's a huge shortage of candidates in your specific industry or if you're the only person who knows where the bodies are buried, but that isn't most people)

@Waxonwaxoff0

I find it odd that childcare is still restricted in so many places! All the after school clubs and holiday clubs are back to normal round here, they have been since school reopened to all.

Maybe because we live in areas with a higher rate of infection? My area has had strict lockdown almost from day one. When people in other parts of the country were enjoying things reopening, many places here remained shut and many nurseries ended up closing down. My area has one of the highest figures of under 5s in the country. Now imagine half the nurseries closing. That's a lot of children without a nursery place and others already running at capacity.

@Waxonwaxoff0 after school care is back on here but the holiday club they usually run isn’t on. I’m actually not sure why. I wonder if they’re being forced to have less numbers therefore it’s not financially viable to employ the staff for it.

Or because of the strict guidelines they’re having to adhere too for the 3 hours they have the kids after school it’s maybe too much to do all day in the holidays. They’re having to be stricter at after school club than they are at school. I don’t know why.

@Waxonwaxoff0, your lucky.

I think some of it is supply and demand. If the demand isn't there for wrap around care, either parents WFH, or kids going to a neighbours or whatever to limit the risk factor. It has an impact on the ability for these services to run.

My kids afterschool normally run a holiday club, 8-6, normally they have over 50 kids, and do lots of activities with them.
For Easter they had less than 10 definites and a few maybes. That money wouldn't cover the costs of the building let and the staff costs.

People seem to be forgetting that back in the 80s amd 90s many 8, 9, 10, 11 year olds were latch key kids and let themselves into the house after school. Looked after themselves for a couple of hours until mum and dad got home.

That same age group are coming home doing their own thing while mum or dad is busying away on the laptop.

Every now and they someone posts can I leave my 9yo at home for 10mins. The argument against leaving them is always what if your in an accident or they have a problem at home.
It's not about the child actually looking after themselves.

[quote Lockdownbear]@Waxonwaxoff0, your lucky.

I think some of it is supply and demand. If the demand isn't there for wrap around care, either parents WFH, or kids going to a neighbours or whatever to limit the risk factor. It has an impact on the ability for these services to run.

My kids afterschool normally run a holiday club, 8-6, normally they have over 50 kids, and do lots of activities with them.
For Easter they had less than 10 definites and a few maybes. That money wouldn't cover the costs of the building let and the staff costs.

People seem to be forgetting that back in the 80s amd 90s many 8, 9, 10, 11 year olds were latch key kids and let themselves into the house after school. Looked after themselves for a couple of hours until mum and dad got home.

That same age group are coming home doing their own thing while mum or dad is busying away on the laptop.

Every now and they someone posts can I leave my 9yo at home for 10mins. The argument against leaving them is always what if your in an accident or they have a problem at home.
It's not about the child actually looking after themselves.[/quote]
Supply and demand makes sense. I live in a very industrial town and there are a lot of factories, I work in one myself and obviously WFH isn't possible in these type of jobs so we probably have higher demand than other places.

I think YANBU but will probably need to be flexible in the school holidays due to wrap around not working as normal. (It is in my area, but can see others saying it's not everywhere). Tbh though in term time I totally agree with you and the expectation in my workplace is that kids are back in school / nursery and other than bubbles bursting, it should be work as usual and I totally agree (I have 2 young DC as well).

I'm really not an unreasonable boss whose trying to grind women down, just a struggling manager whose trying to be supportive and keep the business running effectively

That comes across very clearly, OP, though after your updates about what the job entails and what you've already given, you may well come to the realisation that there's only so much you can offer

I strongly suspect you'll have a minority who'll be even less keen to return after a further extension, and the invitation to talk to you if they have a problem - while laudable in itself - is practically a guarantee that problems will be found by those who consider childcare issues to be a matter for employers rather than themselves

Fortunately, though, if those who insist that "how they organise their family's no business of the boss" are correct, you won't have a problem ... because then they wouldn't need to involve you in their arrangements at all

@TheKeatingFive

Closure of schools and childcare was done to protect society as a whole, so I can’t get too worked up about the ‘it’s not fair on other staff’ argument.

It’s comments like this that do make me feel far less enthused about doing my bit by working extra hours for no extra pay, to cover those not worked by my colleagues. Thankfully I don’t think they feel the same way!

It’s comments like this

What, facts?

@TheKeatingFive

It’s comments like this

What, facts?

No, the attitude.

No, the attitude.

What attitude would that be? Both me, my husband and my children have made considerable sacrifices to keep standards up at work while schools/childcare have been shut. Thankfully my own work appreciate that and did what they could to help me. Looks like other people weren’t so lucky.

@TheKeatingFive I’m very grateful to my work too. I’ve probably been more productive than usual and they’ve allowed me to flex around kids while not having childcare eg over the Easter break

It's amazing to see how tunes have changed. This time last year when people were wfh and homeschooling and putting out as much work as possible, businesses and employers were happy enough with it if it meant they kept their business afloat. This year it's right you're clearly taking the piss if you're wfh and don't find some kind of childcare.

For some sectors the economic hit has taken time so things might be getting tougher for businesses.

@KurtWilde

It's amazing to see how tunes have changed. This time last year when people were wfh and homeschooling and putting out as much work as possible, businesses and employers were happy enough with it if it meant they kept their business afloat. This year it's right you're clearly taking the piss if you're wfh and don't find some kind of childcare.

I really don't think they were happy with it, they accepted it as unavoidable. Which is why people like the OP - in my view quite reasonably - want it to stop as soon as possible, even if that costs their employees money they don't want to spend.

YANBU I has always been a condition of home working at the companies I have worked at, and was accepted without argument.

I think some people have started to forget what being an employee means. One of our staff refused to come back into work when our business reopened after lock down 1. Her reason - she was better off on furlough as she had no travel or childcare costs, so she wasn't coming back in until the government stopped furlough. Somewhere along the line she seemed to have forgotten she was employed by us, to do a job, and if she wanted to remain employed by us she needed to do the job

It isn't a one size fits all. If the unhappiness is because they simply can't get any childcare, then you're putting them under a lot of stress.

If however, having been WFH and childcare provision shut, they've got used to the money they've saved on nursery or whatever and don't want to go back to spending it now the provisions is there, then they're clearly taking the piss. Very few people are honestly as productive if they're mingling work and childcare, unless they're working till midnight after the kids have gone to bed. And even then, the job has to allow for not being fully available during the day.

I agree with PPs - strong performance management is the way forward.

YABU.

It's difficult at present as a lot of wrap around and holiday care isn't yet fully available to parents in the way it was before Covid.

As an example: Where I work I know of 3 of our childminders which normally take several children have either stopped or had to reduce their numbers a lot and the childcare that took place on site is no longer running.

A lot of holiday provision isn't available this Easter holiday. Who knows if it will be in May and the summer.

People can't rely on using informal childcare. They can have one childcare bubble but can't use play dates and different friends/families outside of that one bubble.

Once restrictions are lifted and things are back to normal it will be different, but right now it's hard for many parents.

Can you facilitate flexible working to allow parents struggling to work after children in bed or at weekends perhaps?

And have some form of measure in place to assess if work targets aren't being met?

@KurtWilde

It's amazing to see how tunes have changed. This time last year when people were wfh and homeschooling and putting out as much work as possible, businesses and employers were happy enough with it if it meant they kept their business afloat. This year it's right you're clearly taking the piss if you're wfh and don't find some kind of childcare.

Well, initially there was no choice. Schools closed, childcare provision closed. I don't think anyone thought lockdown would go on as long as it did.

Now we are getting back to normal, schools open, vaccines being rolled out. Businesses had to adapt to a new way of working but it's been a year now and if productivity isn't great, then employers will be keen to get back to how it was before.

Some of this is down to communication surely.

I line manage one person who normally uses the school after school club, but this hasn't reopened since Covid. We had a conversation and agreed she could take time away from work to cover the school run, and that, as her DC were 9 and 7, it was fine to expect her to work normally once she'd settled them at home.

Equally I manage another person who normally uses a nursery for her 3 year old year old. The 3 year old had to self-isolate, and we had a conversation where the employee explained that her and her partner would both take some leave; her child had a long reliable nap in the middle of the day and she would like to work flexibly in the earlier morning and evening to make up time as she fully recognised that it would be impossible to get much done with a lively toddler.

In both these cases I was able to work with the employee to come up with a sensible solution. What I wouldn't have been happy with was an employee that felt they could work normal hours with a child (particularly a young child) under foot all day, with no discussion at all. Communication and discretion may be the key?

I think, under normal circumstances, then insisting that employees have appropriate childcare in place whilst home working is absolutely fine. However, at the moment, this is still not possible for a vast number of parents, especially during the holidays, as a lot of holiday clubs/etc... for primary school aged children haven't yet reopened. Personally, I absolutely hate working at home whilst my youngest child is here because I feel guilty that she is bored and sitting on her own for much of the day and invariably ends up with me logging back on after she's in bed.

@TheJerkStore

Proof of childcare? Thats ridiculous

Why?

Many organisations insisted on this pre-Covid.

How do you prove that you have a childcare bubble?

Child's grandparent could send a message saying they've got the children but equally they could send the same message and just not being doing it.

Not everyone has paid for childcare or so some businesses insist that their employees pay for childcare even if there is a willing and able family member doing it instead?

But the point is if people can't find childcare they can't find it! It doesn't magically appear just because an employer wishes it! It's clear on this thread that some areas are better than others for childcare availability.

To expect employees to find something that doesn't exist is ridiculous.