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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To insist my staff have childcare in place?

999 replies

willandgrace · 07/04/2021 10:10

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

OP posts:
ParadiseIsland · 07/04/2021 16:52

@TheKeatingFive

If you are struggling to find a CM, it’s not because of the lockdown and not being out of it yet.

This is manifestly not true, supply has not recovered, as many on this thread are testifying to.

Supporting childcare opening back up fully needs to be a big priority now, otherwise working mothers (mostly) look set to be badly affected.

The fact the supply isn’t there isn’t because CM aren’t allowed to work. They CAN.

The reasons I think are complex:

  • there wasn’t enough CM in the first place
  • cost vs payment made it hard for some nurseries to stay afloat.
  • some CM decided to close and. Get government support instead.
  • the wrap around care wasn’t taken into account when deciding lockdown rules
  • no clarity on what was OK or not to do
  • expectations from the government that MOTHERS would pick up the slack etc etc

What it means is that the end of the lockdown rules will not automatically mean more spaces available.

KurtWilde · 07/04/2021 16:55

@Biscuitsdisappear

You don't know how easy or difficult it would be for somebody to get child care. Where exactly does your authority stop? Do you believe that you can dictate to people how they are going to run their lives in their own homes? If the work is being done then I don't believe that you have any room to complain.
Exactly. If it came down to my employer saying my children couldn't be in their own home whilst I work then I'd be looking for a different employer.
loggybear · 07/04/2021 17:03

@Everythingfromhome the last time i check no university has a culture of presenteeism and all academics are judged and judged very heavily on outputs. so it's really not much of a culture change for your workplace. i wont be in the office till october now....but realistically my boss still expects me to put in 60hr weeks cos thats what will get me the publications.

LemonSherbetFancies · 07/04/2021 17:03

So are workers with children aged 9 to say 12 expected to have childcare even if they can just sort themselves out back at home? Confused

dotdashdashdash · 07/04/2021 17:04

@Biscuitsdisappear

You don't know how easy or difficult it would be for somebody to get child care. Where exactly does your authority stop? Do you believe that you can dictate to people how they are going to run their lives in their own homes? If the work is being done then I don't believe that you have any room to complain.
Yes, and how far do you go? Force someone to put their child in a nursery they aren't happy with, a childminder they don't feel comfortable with? Because they used to use parents are can't now until they're vaccinated?

I understand that some people aren't using childcare to save money, and that's wrong, but the majority don't have the option currently.

Jellycatspyjamas · 07/04/2021 17:05

If you are struggling to find a CM, it’s not because of the lockdown and not being out of it yet.

Where I am 3 childminders stopped working at the start of lockdown. One took the opportunity to retire early and the other two needed to find alternative work and have no plans to return. My kids childminder was one who stopped working. If found them a place in an after school club which closed at the end of this lockdown because it wasn’t economically viable for them because so many parents were working from home and didn’t take up places after the first lockdown - they tried running on a reduced basis but couldn’t make it work. The usual local authority run holiday clubs aren’t running over Easter and none of the usual club based holiday camps are running either because they can’t make them Covid safe.

It’s untrue to say childcare isn’t reduced due to Covid and lockdown. It’s very challenging. My kids (who have additional support needs including attachment issues) have had three changes in childcare in the space of a year, after a year of disruption and restriction.

I support the need for childcare when working, particularly in a job like mine, but let’s not pretend it’s easy.

MarshaBradyo · 07/04/2021 17:06

@Biscuitsdisappear

You don't know how easy or difficult it would be for somebody to get child care. Where exactly does your authority stop? Do you believe that you can dictate to people how they are going to run their lives in their own homes? If the work is being done then I don't believe that you have any room to complain.
The line is probably at phrasing used earlier. Work must be completed uninterrupted
PerspicaciousGreen · 07/04/2021 17:07

@crosstalk I think we're having a difference of perspective/timescales here. My personal view I'd that over the next six months, the country will be moving out of covid crisis mode and that the OP is thinking ahead about their WFH policy longer term. I think I've been quite clear that I think that any substantial changes or formalisation of their WFH policy needs a transition period. So, for example, giving their employees a heads up that from September, if they are going to continue to WFH on an ongoing basis, they can only do this with a suitable workspace. I don't think the employer needs to come and snoop round your house but it is reasonable for them to require you to have somewhere which can cope with the demands of the job - maybe silence, maybe a professional wall behind you, maybe reliable internet...whatever it is. If I were hiring someone for a permanent WFH job I wouldn't be asking in the interview but I would make it clear at the offer stage that I expected them to be as available and professional at home as they would in the office. And I would bring up any problems that were related to their home workspace in the same way as any other performance problems.

While I think the OP would be unreasonable to just spring this on people, there will come a time when childcare is widely available and I think it would be prudent of the OP to create their new WFH policy with that in mind and view the current circumstances as a transition period. I am very supportive of WFH. I'm not working right now but I used to WFH and loved it! However, it is still WORK and standards don't (in normal times) change because someone is located somewhere else.

I think @Stompythedinosaur has it right that if I were suddenly called back into the office I would be questioning why no performance issues had been raised with me. I think taking it up with those who are not up to scratch individually will be the most helpful thing to do. For the piss takers, it will make it clear that you've seen what they're doing and they can't just coast on it. For those with real struggles, it will give you a chance to discuss accommodations with them and the timescale for which they expect to have difficulties and come to a mutual agreement. Don't punish everyone for the crimes of the few!

TheKeatingFive · 07/04/2021 17:07

They CAN.

But lots of them aren’t.

The whys and wherefores don’t really help employees who are being told to use childcare that doesn’t exist.

IWantT0BreakFree · 07/04/2021 17:08

YABU. They probably usually rely on relatives and friends to help with childcare and you probably don’t pay them enough to be able to afford full time childcare for multiple children (along with the majority of businesses). Things are not back to normal. Some childcare options are now available but many are still not.

MarshaBradyo · 07/04/2021 17:08

Exact wording from pp:

‘being found to have competing responsibilities during work hours will be grounds for disciplinary’

Edtheduck82 · 07/04/2021 17:10

YANBU

It's absolutely reasonable to expect staff to organise childcare so that they can work unencumbered. It's actually quite insane to think anyone can do their job properly whilst looking after their children - i know I couldn't! Some people have become used to the flexibility of working from home and are now using it as a cost saving method.

Changeismyname · 07/04/2021 17:11

YANBU however there does still need to be a degree of flexibility. Holiday clubs tend to run in school hours, which doesn’t cover the full working day. Even with early drop off and late pick up, you’re not going to get a full 9-5. DS is at a holiday club for the Easter break but the short hours and time out of the house to drop him off / pick him up does eat into my working day. I am having to make up time in the evenings to compensate and my bosses are understanding.

Rukaya · 07/04/2021 17:12

The fact the supply isn’t there isn’t because CM aren’t allowed to work. They CAN

It doesn't make the slightest difference if they can, but are not. It's immaterial!
My youngest childs nursery was allowed to open since January, however it did not do so.

zzzebra · 07/04/2021 17:12

What about allowing everyone to 'buy' extra holiday? Or take unpaid leave? Depending on the work could you get university student temps to cover any holiday.

Honestly, after the pandemic beyond listening to any flexible working requests and accommodating parents using their holiday allowance when suits. I don't see how this is your issue to resolve.

If you're feeling generous you might find that taking a no-nonsense approach to work from home but then increasing everyone's holiday allowance so they have spare days to cover childcare would balance everything out.

Icenii · 07/04/2021 17:13

I guess it comes down to what type of society it is we want to live in. Driving people into the ground for rubbish pay isn't where we want to be. People flexing and enjoying life while contributing is where we should be. There will be teething problems and some things may not work, but our way of life needs to change. We need to think beyond what we know rather than living to the same shitty formula that is driving up the mental health crisis and allowing bias. Stop being trapped in the same old thinking.

LST · 07/04/2021 17:14

People keep using the words 'looking after children' but I can honestly say I haven't 'looked after' my 7 and 9 year old today. They have got all their own snacks and drinks and my 9 year old even asked at half 12 if he was OK to make them both a spread cheese sarnie. (I dont normally have my dinner til 1). They have been in the extension with lego, colouring, tablets and netflix. If the weather was nice they could play in the garden. They don't interrupt my day at all. And thankfully my employer see this!

Alma2021 · 07/04/2021 17:16

@Biscuitsdisappear

You don't know how easy or difficult it would be for somebody to get child care. Where exactly does your authority stop? Do you believe that you can dictate to people how they are going to run their lives in their own homes? If the work is being done then I don't believe that you have any room to complain.
The problem is that the work is not being done (OP mentioned further up that productivity has come down). It's not difficult to understand that unsupervised young children are a distraction - I have fairly easy and well behaved children yet I would not be able to do my job properly when WHF. With WFH becoming more widespread (and no longer the one off WFH day when looking after a sick child) companies will have no choice but making clear to their employees that they must have appropriate childcare arrangements whilst WHF. Otherwise I can see how people will try and make childcare savings and productivity will eventually nosedive. However maybe give them a bit more time, from September? If they're not happy they can leave and go and work somewhere else. With so many industries having been decimated you should be able to hire quite easily (though I haven't RTFT so not too sure if your staff can be replaced easily).
Nelia5 · 07/04/2021 17:16

I thought it as a legal requirement / insurance issue to wfh without having childcare in place. This is in case something happens to the child while the parent is busy working etc, so the employer can’t be liable

KingdomScrolls · 07/04/2021 17:20

Simple answer OP, everyone back to the office

Lockdownbear · 07/04/2021 17:22

@Edtheduck82

YANBU

It's absolutely reasonable to expect staff to organise childcare so that they can work unencumbered. It's actually quite insane to think anyone can do their job properly whilst looking after their children - i know I couldn't! Some people have become used to the flexibility of working from home and are now using it as a cost saving method.

That very much depends on the age of the children.

I noticed a bit of a difference between having a 3yo in the house last year and a 4yo this year. And then there is a massive difference between having a 4 yo and having a 9 or 10 year old in the house.

I don't quite know what the Op is expecting families to do. If child care isn't available it's not available. Places are fighting for survival.

skeggycaggy · 07/04/2021 17:23

I did a poll on MN back in Sept, about 50% of parents said their before/after school care wasn’t opening as it did before Covid.

At our school it hasn’t reopened at all - there is now no before/after school, no holiday club.

At the next school the before/after school has reopened but reduced hours - you have to collect your kids by 4pm. No holiday club has restarted.

So it’s just not possible right now to have my kids in childcare full time.

GoldenOmber · 07/04/2021 17:27

@MarshaBradyo

Exact wording from pp:

‘being found to have competing responsibilities during work hours will be grounds for disciplinary’

That’s fine as a longer-term policy once childcare is available again. It would be fairly shit to spring that on parents right now when lots of it isn’t. I would be unimpressed if my work pivoted from expecting us to work with kids at home all day a couple of months ago to treating us like we were sneaking illicit substances into the office for not being able to conjure up Mary Poppins on demand now.

“We expect you to have childcare in place. If this is causing difficulties in the current situation, please discuss with your manager.” Makes the expectation clear that WFH with a four-year-old to care for is not a long-term plan, but also recognises that the situation is not ideal right now and some flexibilities will need to happen.

countesskay · 07/04/2021 17:29

I work from home 2 days and use breakfast and after school club now schools open. I wouldn't expect not too

GoldenOmber · 07/04/2021 17:31

@countesskay

I work from home 2 days and use breakfast and after school club now schools open. I wouldn't expect not too
But a lot of people can’t use breakfast and after-school clubs.