Another dog moan - aibu

[Cocothecat27]

I have a small terrier who is quite reactive to other dogs. He's mostly just very barky but he has been known to have a little snap at other dogs if they come up to him, not that he'd do any damage as he's tiny. He seems particularly reactive when he's on lead and other dogs approach him who aren't.

We are working on this, he's still very young. But for this reason he is always on a lead.

Three times this week we have been approached in public places by dogs off lead. The owners always say the same thing - it's ok he/she is fine. But my dog isn't always fine and if he snaps at yours and a fight happens it'll most likely be my very small, on the lead dog that comes off worse.

We had an incident yesterday where a huge dog came bounding over to us which is pretty scary as it is. My idiot dog started going crazy and I had to pick him up.

I tell people sorry he can be a bit snappy at times, as though it's my fault! but if their dog was on a lead too it wouldn't be a problem would it? I'm working on my dog being less reactive but it doesn't help when these things keeps happening. Aibu to find it really annoying?

@ImpatiensI

If owners care about their dogs as much as they claim they’d prioritise the dog’s safety over its ‘need to run around and play’

Those are of equal importance.

One day it will ‘greet’ the wrong on-lead dog and if that dog is larger, faster and dog aggressive you can hardly blame the owner.

Of course you can blame the owner if they know their dog is violent and they take it to a public park when they also know it will come in contact with other dogs.

The owner of the off lead dog could blame the owner of the on lead dog if they want but the on lead dog owner wouldn’t be legally liable and the owner of the off lead dog would be the one with a big vet bill and an injured or dead pet. I personally think safety is much more important than the need to run and play in all situations. My last dog was a border collie who would have loved to run and play chasing cars but I didn’t let him because I valued his safety. Similarly I kept him away from on lead dogs and made sure I could call him away from any dog to avoid him getting injured in a dog fight as much as possible.

If I had a dog that couldn’t read canine body language and insisted on trying to greet any dog I wouldn’t let it off lead around unknown dogs. I think it’s really unfair on dogs that people let them approach any dog assuming they’re friendly as it puts them in danger. Even if you think any dog that bites ‘should’ be muzzled the reality is that there are dogs around that will hurt others if approached and aren’t muzzled so you should be able to stop your dog approaching these dogs for its own safety.

Another thing I don’t get is this:
If you have a dog that is well trained enough to be called to heel around other dogs without the need for a lead, then yes you don’t technically need to put it on lead-but why wouldn’t you?
As pp has said it just signifies to other people that your dog is under control as they don’t know your dog and don’t know that it won’t run up and scare/bother them. Surely walking to heel and being on a lead is a very similar experience for the dog so what is the downside of clipping the lead on for a minute /when around lots of people/kids/cyclists and dogs?
I sometimes see people walking down the street with a dog off lead but right next to them. I’m sure the dogs are well trained but if it’s going to be walking next to them anyway it may as well be on lead to keep it extra safe and avoid unnerving people (plus I think it’s the law on roads). It seems like a strange kind of bravado/showing off how well trained your dog is to deliberately not have it on a lead when it’s right next to you anyway.

The owner of the off lead dog could blame the owner of the on lead dog if they want but the on lead dog owner wouldn’t be legally liable

You can't just blanket state that, it will be judged on case by case. e.g. a person chooses not to muzzle on a powerful aggressive dog, and takes it to a place they know will have dogs running off lead I think they will have something to answer to?

I personally think safety is much more important than the need to run and play in all situations. My last dog was a border collie who would have loved to run and play chasing cars but I didn’t let him because I valued his safety

When did chasing cars get into the convo??

‘If owners care about their dogs as much as they claim they’d prioritise the dog’s safety over its ‘need to run around and play’

Those are of equal importance

Really? Your dog not getting mauled is as important as it’s need to run around off leash and greet other dogs? Why don’t you rent a field for off leash exercise if this is so high priority? You’re putting your dog at risk by letting it scamper around doing what it wants in a public park.

‘One day it will ‘greet’ the wrong on-lead dog and if that dog is larger, faster and dog aggressive you can hardly blame the owner’.

Of course you can blame the owner if they know their dog is violent and they take it to a public park when they also know it will come in contact with other dogs

Violent 😂
Lots of dogs are fearful of other dogs and may react with aggression if yours gets in their face. That’s why it’s on a lead. Nobody is going to pay your vet bill if your out of control dog ran up to an on-lead dog and got bitten! No reasonable person will blame the owner of the on-lead dog.
Dog-reactive dogs have every right to be walked in a park, on a short lead. It may be part of their training to get used to being around other dogs in a controlled manner.

You can't just blanket state that, it will be judged on case by case. e.g. a person chooses not to muzzle on a powerful aggressive dog, and takes it to a place they know will have dogs running off lead I think they will have something to answer to?

It’s common sense. Unless the lead broke, the on-lead dog is under full control of the owner. It doesn’t need to be muzzled unless it’s aggressive to humans.

If your dog is running around off lead and jumps into the space of a big powerful on leads dog who startles and attacks, you are the only person to blame if your dog is injured or killed. You let your dog invade the space of another dog, who is likely on lead for a reason. You’ve no idea what that dog’s been through, if it’s been attacked or traumatised or it can tell the difference between play and threat.

Why don’t you rent a field for off leash exercise if this is so high priority?

Why do you keep going on about renting a field? Not everyone can afford that and probably not got one available if they live in a town for heaven sake. People are allowed to let their dogs run around in a park - it's happening right now! You don't approve? Too bad.

Why do you laugh at my word 'violent'? A person who can't control their aggression is violent aren't they? So is a dog.

No reasonable person will blame the owner of the on-lead dog. Dog-reactive dogs have every right to be walked in a park, on a short lead. It may be part of their training to get used to being around other dogs in a controlled manner.

Not a question of what you think 'reasonable' as an opinion of yours, it will be judged on the facts. Maybe they won't be liable and maybe they will. You demand your right to walk your dangerous dog in a park but are angry at the right of others to let their dogs run around as they're allowed to do? Interesting!

@ImpatiensI

Why don’t you rent a field for off leash exercise if this is so high priority?

Why do you keep going on about renting a field? Not everyone can afford that and probably not got one available if they live in a town for heaven sake. People are allowed to let their dogs run around in a park - it's happening right now! You don't approve? Too bad.

Why do you laugh at my word 'violent'? A person who can't control their aggression is violent aren't they? So is a dog.

No reasonable person will blame the owner of the on-lead dog. Dog-reactive dogs have every right to be walked in a park, on a short lead. It may be part of their training to get used to being around other dogs in a controlled manner.

Not a question of what you think 'reasonable' as an opinion of yours, it will be judged on the facts. Maybe they won't be liable and maybe they will. You demand your right to walk your dangerous dog in a park but are angry at the right of others to let their dogs run around as they're allowed to do? Interesting!

If a dog runs up to my dog on a lead and bothers him enough he will tell the dog off and if that leads to the dog off lead getting injured its the owners fault not mine. And I am someone that walks my dog off lead

It’s common sense. Unless the lead broke, the on-lead dog is under full control of the owner. It doesn’t need to be muzzled unless it’s aggressive to humans

Law doesn't work on ppl opinion of 'common sense'. You just stated on-lead is under full control of owner but also say your dog can attack another dog - so clearly not under control so I would say probably that owner will have to accept a share of liability. You refuse to muzzle because you don't want to. Just like other ppl don't want to keep the dog on a lead all the time.

Dogs can still cause injury even if they're muzzled - so even if an owner leashes and muzzles their dog, doesn't mean injury won't occur.

But they likely will cause a lot less injury/less severe injury if they can't use their teeth to inflict. And the owner will probably be looked on in a more favourable way.

It's not an excuse not to muzzle a dangerous dog to say they can still cause injury with one.

It’s not illegal for a dog to attack or kill another dog-dogs don’t follow our laws and it’s perfectly natural for them to use aggression when they feel threatened. I’ve never heard the word violent used to describe dog aggression before by anyone knowledgeable about dogs. The only legislation which applies is the dangerous dogs act, under which an owner can be prosecuted if their dog has been found to be dangerously out of control in a situation where it causes a human harm, or makes a human worry they could be harmed. There is no protection for dog on dog attacks. It could be argued that a dog attack causes damage to property (dogs count as property in law), but it would be up to the owner of the off lead dog to prove that their dog wasn’t the aggressor/the one that was out of control. Given that their dog is off lead and ignoring recall commands it would be almost impossible to prove that it was under control and the one on a lead was out of control and not threatened.

I believe the chance of a dog on dog attack case ending up in court is small and a prosecution wouldn’t bring back a dead dog anyway. My point is that it is legal to own a dog that is aggressive to other dogs and the owner is under no obligation to muzzle it to protect other dogs.
So it’s important to be mindful that there are dogs like this around and make sure you can call your dog back from on lead dogs even if you think they shouldn’t be walked where you are. And check you have insurance if you want to avoid a vet bill, as even if the dog that bites has insurance to cover third party vet bills it won’t pay out if the dog injures another while on a lead unless the owner has been instructed to muzzle the dog

I’m not an expert on this so correct me if I’m wrong-just my understanding from talking to a vet friend (large animal though) and doing some research when I got my reactive dog.

@ImpatiensI

It's not an excuse not to muzzle a dangerous dog to say they can still cause injury with one.

Reactive =/= dangerous.

Reactive =/= dangerous

Then some posters are using the wrong words to describe their dogs aren't they? If they say the dog can attack another dog and cause injury of course it is dangerous.

From RSPCA site -
It is an offence if your dog attacks an assistance dog but attacks on other animals including pet dogs are not. However, a court could prosecute if a person believes they would have been injured if they tried to stop a dog attacking their animal. If your dog is attacked by another dog, the incident should still be reported to the police immediately.

So if a dog violently attacks another dog and the other dog owner can't get near to rescue because the attack dog is too dangerous they could be a case. And the Police could be involved even if not to prosecute.

Then some posters are using the wrong words to describe their dogs aren't they? If they say the dog can attack another dog and cause injury of course it is dangerous.

All dogs are capable of doing that.

You’re entitled to let your dog off lead if you want and even if it’s out of control you’re very very unlikely to be prosecuted so if it’s a risk you want to take go for it.
Just know that you run the risk of scaring people and people’s pets if they don’t like dogs and your dog approaches them and you can’t call it back. It’s antisocial. How friendly the dog is isn’t really relevant. Any dog can scare a dog or person and should be under control. And if you’re dog runs up to a person and gets kicked, or runs up to an on lead dog and gets bitten or killed then that is entirely your problem for having an out of control dog. Blame who you like if it makes you feel better but no laws will protect you and at the end of the day your pet will be the one suffering the most. I know it’s a small risk and most dogs don’t bite but some do, so it’s not a risk I would take with my dog (letting it run up to on lead dogs) each to their own though.

From Crown Prosecution Site -
A dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person or assistance dog, whether or not it actually does so

There also can be Civil prosecution of course.

But if the dog is on a lead held by an adult strong enough to hold it in one place it would be as good as impossible to claim that there is “reasonable apprehension” that it will attack someone.
Surely if a dog is on a lead it’s not the owners fault that someone else’s dog decided to approach it and decided not to move away when the dog gave warnings such as growling/barking. Very few dogs attack without displaying clear warnings and a well socialised dog would see this and move away. So it’s the owner who lets a dog with a poor understanding of its own body language get into a a dangerous position that is to blame. I’d argue that a dog that is displaying aggressive behaviour to warn others away when on a lead is behaving naturally, and the dog that runs up into snapping jaws “to say hi” is the one with the problem.

@WiganNorthWest

But if the dog is on a lead held by an adult strong enough to hold it in one place it would be as good as impossible to claim that there is “reasonable apprehension” that it will attack someone. Surely if a dog is on a lead it’s not the owners fault that someone else’s dog decided to approach it and decided not to move away when the dog gave warnings such as growling/barking. Very few dogs attack without displaying clear warnings and a well socialised dog would see this and move away. So it’s the owner who lets a dog with a poor understanding of its own body language get into a a dangerous position that is to blame. I’d argue that a dog that is displaying aggressive behaviour to warn others away when on a lead is behaving naturally, and the dog that runs up into snapping jaws “to say hi” is the one with the problem.

I 100% agree with this

That was not what the discussion was at that point, it was about people shouting aggressive and confrontational making a bad situation worse

Rarely is there time for niceties like ‘please’ ‘would you mind putting him on the lead’ when an out of control dog is rushing to greet your reactive one! You’re seconds away from a potentially lethal fight.

Plus the owner is typically some distance away so you have to shout.
‘Get your dog away from mine’ sounds rude and confrontational but it’s to protect your dog. And really yours should be leashed if he approaches on-lead dogs so don’t be surprised if the owner is cross!

So if a dog violently attacks another dog and the other dog owner can't get near to rescue because the attack dog is too dangerous they could be a case. And the Police could be involved even if not to prosecute.

If the owner isn't close enough to have their dog under control or to be able to call it away from a dog that is on a lead beside it's owner, then quite frankly that's their own stupid fault.

Can you also stop with the hysterical language? A dog on a lead which snarls at or bites another unleashed dog which has ran over and jumped on it IS NOT BEING VIOLENT OR DANGEROUS.... it is being a dog and behaving in it's perfectly natural instinctive way FFS.

I go back to my earlier post.

If a random stranger ran over and jumped on you in the street @ImpatiensI would you just stand there? Because that is what you are saying you expect a dog to do, or if it can't then it shouldn't be there right?

Cop on to yourself ey.

Why do you keep going on about renting a field? Not everyone can afford that and probably not got one available if they live in a town for heaven sake. People are allowed to let their dogs run around in a park - it's happening right now! shock You don't approve? Too bad. Why do you laugh at my word 'violent'? A person who can't control their aggression is violent aren't they? So is a dog.

Renting a field for an hour or 2 costs about £3.

You can hire a field with a group of doggy friends. That’s what we do. GS enjoys playing with other dogs, he’s not ‘violent’ just traumatised (and sometimes reacts defensively to unknown dogs in his face especially entire males). I’ve never heard of a dog being labelled ‘violent’ before that’s why I laughed. Fear-aggressive perhaps or reactive?

Of course it’s your choice to let your dog off leash. But please understand that comes with responsibility. I don’t even let my brothers foxhounds off in parks and they have impeccable recall and ignore other dogs; but they’re big and I don’t want them to frighten anyone or accidentally cut up a cyclist or knock a runaway toddler over. Off leash dogs make many people nervous not just people with reactive dogs!

@ImpatiensI

The owner of the off lead dog could blame the owner of the on lead dog if they want but the on lead dog owner wouldn’t be legally liable

You can't just blanket state that, it will be judged on case by case. e.g. a person chooses not to muzzle on a powerful aggressive dog, and takes it to a place they know will have dogs running off lead I think they will have something to answer to?

I personally think safety is much more important than the need to run and play in all situations. My last dog was a border collie who would have loved to run and play chasing cars but I didn’t let him because I valued his safety

When did chasing cars get into the convo??

Chasing cars-I just meant that my dog liked chasing cars but I stopped him from doing what he wanted to keep him safe. As owners we are responsible for keeping our own dogs safe. Sometimes this means stopping them from doing what they want. Along with stopping them chasing cars, stopping them eating rubbish, this includes stopping them from approaching on lead dogs in case they are aggressive . No other owner is responsible for keeping your dog safe so I wouldn’t rely on people muzzling their dogs or walking in remote places to keep yours safe. Morally, owners probably should muzzle dogs with a bite history but it’s not a legal requirement so arguably having the moral high ground won’t make a bite less painful for your dog and won’t help you pay the vet bill.

dangerous dog

To me ‘dangerous’ means a dog who is aggressive to people or out of control eg running into traffic or tripping people up. You can be prosecuted just for letting your dog run towards someone if that person perceives it as aggressive and has an accident as a result of trying to jump aside!

A dog who is reactive or nervous towards other dogs, who misreads social cues and thinks other dogs are a threat, is only dangerous to off-lead dogs who get into his space while he’s on-lead.

You just stated on-lead is under full control of owner but also say your dog can attack another dog

He is under full control on-lead until another dog gets into his face. Any dog can attack another. Breaking up a dog fight isn’t easy and can be finished in mere seconds, before the other dog can be saved. I can pull mine away but I can’t stop yours approaching him!