Another dog moan - aibu

[Cocothecat27]

I have a small terrier who is quite reactive to other dogs. He's mostly just very barky but he has been known to have a little snap at other dogs if they come up to him, not that he'd do any damage as he's tiny. He seems particularly reactive when he's on lead and other dogs approach him who aren't.

We are working on this, he's still very young. But for this reason he is always on a lead.

Three times this week we have been approached in public places by dogs off lead. The owners always say the same thing - it's ok he/she is fine. But my dog isn't always fine and if he snaps at yours and a fight happens it'll most likely be my very small, on the lead dog that comes off worse.

We had an incident yesterday where a huge dog came bounding over to us which is pretty scary as it is. My idiot dog started going crazy and I had to pick him up.

I tell people sorry he can be a bit snappy at times, as though it's my fault! but if their dog was on a lead too it wouldn't be a problem would it? I'm working on my dog being less reactive but it doesn't help when these things keeps happening. Aibu to find it really annoying?

LolaSmiles You said it! The retractable lead seems to be the problem and the solution for so many (small) dog owners who don't bother with training. It's a baffling phenomenon that is much more prevalent now, courtesy of all the cockapoos/maltipoos/teacups that have entered the lockdown world. My favourite pet peeve at the moment is the small dog careening around the towpath on a retractable lead being held by their owner riding a bike. Yay! That's fun for all of us!

I've read the thread and few times and there are a couple of things which raise questions.

1. The dog is a rescue - all rehoming centres do a full assessment of dogs before they are rehomed so that the dogs can be placed with the most suitable owners. They want the rehoming process to be successful so will advise and support adopters of dogs with behavioural issues such as reactivity. Were you given support and advice prior to adoption, did you go back to the rehoming centre for further support after adoption? Has the dogs behaviour improved or deteriorated since you got him? If he was an informal adoption then a trainer/behaviourist should have been involved from the moment you realised there was an issue to make sure you fully understood the extent of it, particularly as you have children.

1. You did not mention your involvement with a trainer until quite some way into the thread even though it was advised by multiple posters. How long have you been working with a trainer? If it's been since you adopted the dog and things haven't improved then perhaps it's time to try someone else. It's concerning that after more than a year you are still so anxious about dogs approaching that you picked your dog up. Surely if you have been working with a trainer for some time you would feel more confident about managing this situation and reading the behaviour of the approaching dog and would know that picking your dog up is the worst thing to do.

1. Of course the ideal time to train a dog is when they are a puppy but this does not mean that older dogs cannot be trained so missing the puppy window does not mean your dogs behaviour cannot be improved. Training is an ongoing process and all dogs will need reminders and refreshers from time to time.

1. Several posters have pointed out that irresponsible dog owners exist and are not going anywhere so you need to develop strategies to deal with them but you have at times been a bit defensive. It's fair enough if you started the thread just to vent but getting stuck on the idea that your dog walks would be less stressful if everyone would change their behaviour to suit you is unrealistic.

I write all of the above with the experience of having owned reactive dogs and one of them when I was a completely clueless dog owner. It was a steep and stressful learning curve but things did improve because I was willing to be honest about my own deficiencies, get expert help and followed the advice I was given.

@TheVanguardSix

LolaSmiles You said it! The retractable lead seems to be the problem and the solution for so many (small) dog owners who don't bother with training. It's a baffling phenomenon that is much more prevalent now, courtesy of all the cockapoos/maltipoos/teacups that have entered the lockdown world. My favourite pet peeve at the moment is the small dog careening around the towpath on a retractable lead being held by their owner riding a bike. Yay! That's fun for all of us!

I know a man in his late 80s who has only recently decided that cycling with his ex racing greyhounds on a lead possibly isn't the best idea, having been pulled off his bike for the umpteenth time

He's of the pleasantly eccentric (but usually fairly sensible!) variety. Just with limited respect for health and safety...

We had a dog from the age of about 1.5 years, not trained, and a famously 'stubborn' breed and we managed to train her pretty easily in the first couple of months that we had her to recall, walk on lead, sit, wait, etc etc.
It takes patience, time, endless repetition and a calm owner though...

Yep! EBTs have a reputation and really are not as biddable as many other, popular dogs are.

2.5 years in I have used about 18 saint's worth of patience. Every week I have to go back over something he learned well over a year ago. Again and again and again. Today, back on his collar rather than in a harness, we are back to "Don't bloody pull me!" training He'll get there, again. He usually does.

When 1 thing stops working something else becomes rock solid... and then maybe wanes as something else becomes his favoured behaviour of the week. Calm, calm calm, in that Robert Lindsey / GBH manner!

@m0therofdragons

Yanbu we sometimes walk our ddog off lead and we’ve trained him to seek permission before greeting another ddog (which gives us time to establish if we A. Want ddog to great that ddog and B. Check if other dog is on a lead as we’d then keep him away. he’s be great at this for months but he’s now currently back on the long lead as he saw a dog he want to play with and went, ignoring recall. He’s 9 months and I have this is normal. On that occasion he was put straight back on the lead and we apologised to the other dog owner.

Ddog does great greeting as in he gets near and lays down so wasn’t jumping on the dog but I still know I need to gain more control. It’s hard training as you do have to take risks sometimes and many dogs aren’t really suited to a leaded walk around the block - especially gun dogs. Owners need to be much more aware though!

Sounds like you are a really responsible dog owner and genuinely considerate of others. At nine months there is time enough for perfection. He isn't bothering when it isn't wanted, he is giving a very clear message by lying down.

Ours is a retired trial dog used to the grouse moors, to does want plenty of off lead running. She gets that around the house and will happily run for hours unless recalled. She loves running up through the woods, over fields and through any boggy mess of mud. The difference is that she has instant recall. One peep and she sprints back to sit beside us. She will change direction when asked and knows 'leave that' means to stop what she is doing and walk on - even if it is a delicious looking pheasant.

It is self employed dogs that are the problem. The idea of letting dogs have 'time to let off steam and explore' is asking for trouble. Dogs are not the same as children - although feral/free spirited/uncontrolled children can be problematic in playgrounds too.

What ours doesn't do is play with other dogs. She doesn't know how to play, as she has lived in kennels and worked from birth, until she came to us. She dislikes other dogs approaching her full on; her tail drops between her legs and she tries to walk away. If they persist they get barked at by me, not her. If the dog doesn't understand. I put them on a lead and return them to their owner - who are sometimes less than grateful, but I help them understand that they are not in control of their dog and that is not acceptable.
Ours isn't timid, she is a very confident dog. She isn't reactive or aggressive - the softest beast ever, never so much as barks. She simply doesn't want a boisterous dog bouncing up to her and spoiling her bird watching and mud sniffing. She will happily ignore other dogs, if they ignore her. She never approaches other dogs and does not seem to have any desire to do so. Very occasionally she'll join forces with our daughter's working cocker to set on the hidden prey whilst he retrieves it, but usually she prefers him to do his own finding and fetching

Is your dog muzzled? If you know your dog is prone to nipping, it would be incredibly irresponsible of you not to muzzle your dog whether other dogs around you are on or off the lead.

You shouldn’t muzzle an on-lead dog because if a loose dog attacks him he has no way to defend himself. My friend’s GS (always leashed as he’s unpredictable around other dogs) has been attacked twice whilst on the lead and lost half an ear. He now thinks every bull breed will attack him. Both times he almost killed his attacker though he has the advantage of being huge and fast. He was a street dog once, rescued around the age of 3.

A smaller dog is defenceless against a loose dog attack especially if the owner muzzled it!

@LemonRoses It is self employed dogs that are the problem. The idea of letting dogs have 'time to let off steam and explore' is asking for trouble.

What is this supposed to mean

Your comment about children is horrible.

[quote ImpatiensI]**@LemonRoses* It is self employed dogs that are the problem. The idea of letting dogs have 'time to let off steam and explore' is asking for trouble.*

What is this supposed to mean

Your comment about children is horrible.[/quote]
Self employed - sorry, it means they are left to make decisions for themselves and not under close control.

You don't think feral children in playgrounds can be a problem? You don't think 'letting them explore and burn off steam' is synonymous with a parent not paying attention to them - which might well be fine in some situations and with some children. There are an awful lot of parents who don't intervene when they should to control their children's behaviour towards others. Why is that horrible? Odd if you think children should have a free reign to do as they like.

YABU to expect other owners to keep their dogs on leads. And you won't teach your nervous dog to be less reactive by picking him up every time another dog approaches

I’m guessing the OP picked her dog up because he was about to start a fight with an off lead dog twice his size.

When I walk reactive GS and a loose dog approaches him aggressively, I let him defend himself (he’s very good at it). If there’s an owner in sight I shout at owner to get her dog away from mine.

Not all reactive dogs can be cured, GS was neglected and abused as a pup (owner had 2 kids so he’s great with young kids, but had no opportunity to socialise with other dogs or puppies). He then lived as a street dog before he was rescued. He’s been through all sorts of training and I think this is as far as we can get with him. He gets time off lead to exercise with other big dogs but only in a rented secure field or on private land, and is watched closely.

People who overprotect their dogs in this way should really stick to cats. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the basic nature and needs of dogs

No, the lurchers should have been on leads! Poor Jess. This is one reason GS is ALWAYS leashed in public, to protect smaller dogs, cats and squirrels!

@LemonRoses that's a unacceptable word to describe any child. Says a lot about where your opinions are based.

I’m guessing the OP picked her dog up because he was about to start a fight with an off lead dog twice his size.

And since OP already knows her dog is more reactive on the lead then she helped to make the situation worse in the first place by 1. having him on lead and 2.trying to train him in a place where she knows dogs are playing off-lead.

[quote ImpatiensI]@LemonRoses that's a unacceptable word to describe any child. Says a lot about where your opinions are based. [/quote]
Which word is unacceptable - do tell. Is it feral? Do you know what that means? From the dictionary, "Having escaped from domestication and become wild".

Says more about poor parenting than the child. Hardly insulting - some parents do, sadly, let their children run wild and uncontrolled. My opinions are based on those responsible needing to remain in control of that which they are responsible for - be that a child, a car, a dog or a gun.

What do you think it says about my opinions? Odd suggestion that it says much at all.

You need to accept the fact that the world isn’t going to revolve around your dogs needs. If you can’t handle the dog maybe he’s not the one for you

Keeping a reactive dog leashed in public is handling it appropriately. If an off lead dog bounds up, startled him and comes of worse maybe the owner will think twice in future?

GS is always leashed in public. Sometimes he barks and lunges at dogs he takes a dislike to but can’t get to them thanks to the short lead. But with kids he’s fine, he’s had toddlers bump into him and merely sniffed or licked them. Children and random adults often want to pet him, I warn he might try to lick or jump up and mostly they still want to pet him (and he loves attention from humans) but he’s on a short lead so I’m in control.

When I walk my brothers 2 retired foxhounds I let them off lead on the moors as they’re completely reliable and will recall with a single whistle. They don’t approach people or other dogs. But if I’m in a park or bust area I put the leash on (they have a double harness) as they’re big and people might get scared.

A well trained dog should be capable of walking to heel regardless of distractions, running only where directed and returning on first whistle. If they cannot do that, they need to be on leads near others and taken somewhere else to ‘play’

I completely agree. My brother’s ex/foxhounds recall with a single whistle and walk to heel with a single command or hand signal. Otherwise they’d be leashed.

GS is always leashed because sometimes he wants to play and sometimes he doesn’t. So he may give an off lead approaching dog confusing signals. So no, letting your dog go within 1m of him to test the waters is letting your dog go within lunging distance! Always always ask if unsure. GS may show interest initially, then change his mind and attack the dog in his space.

The dog is a rescue - all rehoming centres do a full assessment of dogs before they are rehomed so that the dogs can be placed with the most suitable owners

Not all rescues come from rehoming centres. GS came from a friend of a friend; his initial owner couldn’t afford to feed him so asked around for a new owner as he’d taken to running wild.

Other rescues are dogs people have found dumped, with no microchip and nobody claiming them.

Or dogs adopted by a relative or friend when somebody can’t care for or manage their dog anymore.

If there’s an owner in sight I shout at owner to get her dog away from mine.

And by doing shouting aggressively you add to the tension in the situation. Not good.

Out of interest, those of you that allow your dog to approach other dogs on leads and people:
Would you be annoyed if your dog got injured by an on lead dog and you had a large vet bill. Would you blame the on lead dog’s owner? What if their dog was muzzled and still injured your dog (very possible)? Or would you say it’s just what dogs do and think you should walk somewhere where you definitely won’t meet an aggressive dog?

Would you be annoyed if your dog approached/jumped up a person and they kicked them away?

Do you ever worry that your inability to call your dog away from dogs and people could put your dog in a dangerous situation?

@Thebirdstbeseathebirds

We had a dog from the age of about 1.5 years, not trained, and a famously 'stubborn' breed and we managed to train her pretty easily in the first couple of months that we had her to recall, walk on lead, sit, wait, etc etc. It takes patience, time, endless repetition and a calm owner though...

Congratulations your dog sounds lovely and your hard work paid off. However success at training a reactive dog depends on a lot more than patience, time, repetition and a calm owner... Many dogs will never have good enough recall or behaviour around other dogs to be safe off lead and many will sadly always be reactive even with the best training. I’ve known behaviourists and trainers who have had dogs that are not safe off lead/are reactive. It depends on the dogs breed (some breeds always have poor recall), the dogs genes and what experiences it’s had in the past. Just because you managed to train your dog doesn’t mean that every reactive dog can be cured. You can work with behaviourists to manage and improve reactivity but lots of dogs will never be able to tolerate strange dogs approaching them rudely. It’s often nothing to do with how calm/good an owner is so I think it’s unfair to suggest that having a reactive dog is the owner’s fault and it is possible to train any dog to the standard where they are safe off lead. If it was that easy then all we would see if perfectly trained dogs which is definitely not the case. It’s actually a lot harder to counter condition a reactive dog when you are constantly pestered by out of control dogs.

I started a very similar thread in the doghouse section, I also have a terrier who can be a bit hit and miss with other dogs. Last Friday I was walking him on lead and a huge dog ran across the field straight for him, the owners had no control over their dog at all 🤬

The large dog took me off my feet and my dog was going mad, it was so stressful.

The verdict on that thread was to pick up a smaller dog if you're concerned for their safety.

Not all rescues come from rehoming centres.

Acknowledged in my comments.

If he was an informal adoption then a trainer/behaviourist should have been involved from the moment you realised there was an issue to make sure you fully understood the extent of it, particularly as you have children.

If he was an informal adoption then a trainer/behaviourist should have been involved from the moment you realised there was an issue to make sure you fully understood the extent of it, particularly as you have children

In GS’s case, he has seen many trainers and behaviouralists, been on residential training courses, been assessed for aggression. The conclusion is he shows no aggression to humans (or kids) but is unpredictable with dogs. Some dogs he plays happily with, if a little boisterous for his size. Others he takes an immediate dislike to eg staffie types (thanks to being attacked by staffie types on 2 occasions). Any dog who shows aggression towards him he lunges at and gets the upper hand straight away thanks to his size and quick reactions. I know he can defend himself against one dog but I worry about him being attacked by a pair of dogs, especially pitbull types. I usually carry a hiking pole when walking him.

His training is ongoing but I don’t think he’ll ever be off-leash unless on private land or in a rented secure field. He’s too unpredictable due to past trauma with dogs. And while he obeys most commands he still gets over-excited and tries to jump up at people or lick them or gets carried away playing.

@WiganNorthWest yes I find it all worrying. I have a puppy and feel I need to prioritise her socialising and enjoying off-lead time, but also am very worried about how she greets every dog and how fast she runs.

I think a massive massive problem we have is so many novice dog owners thing ‘socialisation’ means playing with as many dogs as possible from a young age, when actually what it should mean is learning to be around other dogs calmly, learning to ignore other dogs when told to and focus on the owner, and playing with dogs when permitted, reading and respecting the other dogs body language.

Letting your dog play with other dogs endlessly is NOT socialisation.