Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

I don’t see any strategic problem solving from your side I’m afraid and if you want to lump yourself in with the bonkers brigade, that’s entirely up to you. Personally yes, I do have an agenda, I want to feel save when I take my kids out or when, for example, I am minding my business in my own garden. I can’t believe that people would be against improving our dog legislation, seems like it massively needs an overhaul....and those saying licenses don’t work, that was over 30 years ago. Technology has moved on, I’m sure there are much better ways to enforce them.

*safe

I guess this is the straw that broke the camels back...that’s how I would explain it. Enough is enough! Selfish dog owners thinking their rights are more important than others.

Looking through that Wikipedia list of fatal dog attacks that someone posted upthread a couple of things stood out to me:

1. Quite a few attacks were during epileptic fits of the owner. I was totally unaware there was a link so a bit of a public health campaign might save a few lives there?
2. The dog amnesty in the Merseyside case brought in loads of illegal breeds. There should be another amnesty now while the Birmingham case is in the news.
3. So many suspended sentences and community service for the owners of these dog attacks. There definitely needs to be more of a deterrent to having an out of control dog.

Unfortunately no money will be thrown at the issue due to the relatively low number of deaths per year so I can’t see anything changing realistically.

I live in the lakes, it’s full of hundreds of these people getting cross when they are told they have to control their dogs on farmland, most ignore it and the sheep attacks just keep happening.

I walk my dog on farmland and he is always on a lead around livestock but I also see what you describe, plenty of dog owners absolutely convinced their dog would never worry sheep, I would describe them as ignorant and arrogant rather than entitled. Whilst there are plenty of them they are not the majority, most of us understand that a farmer has the right to shoot a dog or that a sheep or cow could kill our dog if it kicked them so we put our dogs on leads for everyone's safety. I would support mandatory training for all dog owners to address issues like this.

Do you say anything if you see this happening? I do, I tell people livestock are out and they need to put their dog on the lead. If they don't I lie and tell them the farmer is out too.

It really isn't necessary for you to use insults to refer to a rather large number of people because of the behaviour of the minority.

Can a dog owner explain this to me: up thread someone said “I’d never leave my dog alone with a child” appreciating that a dog could get annoyed and snap at someone.

What’s the difference out in public? Could it not get annoyed, snap at another dog or a well meaning child? If so... keep them on lead is surely the answer?

Not all dogs are good off lead. So until we can be sure of that (that will never happen), we need a blanket rule of all dogs on lead in public spaces.

@Poorlykitten

I don’t see any strategic problem solving from your side I’m afraid and if you want to lump yourself in with the bonkers brigade, that’s entirely up to you. Personally yes, I do have an agenda, I want to feel save when I take my kids out or when, for example, I am minding my business in my own garden. I can’t believe that people would be against improving our dog legislation, seems like it massively needs an overhaul....and those saying licenses don’t work, that was over 30 years ago. Technology has moved on, I’m sure there are much better ways to enforce them.

Feel free to point out the parts that you feel are non-strategic - from yesterday's post where @Flaxmeadow accused me of condoning dog attacks because I keep pointing out that leash laws and breed bans are ineffective.

No of course not. Pointing out the flaws in your proposal is not the same as condoning dog attacks

The solutions are complex and multi factorial and include crackdowns on irresponsible breeding/buying. Including by naice middle class families wanting a pandemic puppy. You only need to spend a short time on the doghouse to see how many posters make terrible purchasing decisions because they want a dog, and the whatsa-doodle at the school gates is on her third litter. It's backyard breeding without regard for temperament or health.

Mandatory licensing, inspection and registration of all breeders.

Ideally, mandatory ore-purchase education for anyone wanting to buy a puppy, and mandatory training classes after purchase.

Better veterinary education in behavioural problems and how to prevent/address them.

Education in safe child-pet interactions as part of NCT/pre-natal education.

Implementation of 'deed not breed' legislation so that antisocial dog behaviour is dealt with regardless of breed.

Better prosecution of illegal dog activity such as fighting which is a big driver for many 'status' dogs. Also enforcement of drug/gang activity involving dogs fir similar reasons.

I'd also add better public understanding of how to provide good dog welfare, interpret dog behaviour and be a responsible owner

@2021ismyyear

Can a dog owner explain this to me: up thread someone said “I’d never leave my dog alone with a child” appreciating that a dog could get annoyed and snap at someone.

What’s the difference out in public? Could it not get annoyed, snap at another dog or a well meaning child? If so... keep them on lead is surely the answer?

Not all dogs are good off lead. So until we can be sure of that (that will never happen), we need a blanket rule of all dogs on lead in public spaces.

Well I wouldn't leave my dog outside alone with a child either.

Leads don't prevent bites.

However with me supervising my dog abd a parent or other responsible adult supervising their child, I'm not sure whether indoors or outdoors makes a difference

@FOJN , sadly it doesn’t feel like the minority though. It’s a regular occurrence. There are signs up almost everywhere stating dogs need to be on leads, especially around lambing time. I have told people in the past but that’s not really my job, often they are rude and dismissive so not interested anyway. If you own a dog, you should at least have the decency to read up on the countryside laws and codes surrounding dog ownership but this doesn’t seem to happen. Last week a field of ewes aborted because they were worried by a dog, the owner didn’t realise apparently that her animal would behave in that way and although apologetic still seemed quite stunned that her darling boy had caused this to happen. So forgive me , from where I am standing it absolutely feels like the majority. I am extremely happy that you agree they are ignorant and arrogant too, I’ll add that to the list.

I think in some cases yes, leads absolutely prevent bites. If you have a reactive dog snd it’s under your control on a lead it won’t have as much chance to bite, what an odd statement.

@Poorlykitten

I think in some cases yes, leads absolutely prevent bites. If you have a reactive dog snd it’s under your control on a lead it won’t have as much chance to bite, what an odd statement.

Or is in fact more likely to bite because when the dog's fight or flight response kicks in, there's no option of flight.

Please link to your evidence showing that leads reduce dog bites. Or at least construct a coherent argument for it

Leads come in a variety of types including long lines and flexis. It's entirely possible for a dog on a lead to be dangerously out of control.

Leads don't prevent bites.

I would have thought it obvious that if a dog is on an appropriate lead then, apart the owner who you say is "in control, it cannot get close enough to bite someone. Same if it is appropriately chained in a garden or yard, it cannot escape

I don’t need to link to anything, it’s just common sense. Very bizarre.

We are chaining dogs in yards now?

Obviously long lines are an exception.

@Flaxmeadow

Leads don't prevent bites.

I would have thought it obvious that if a dog is on an appropriate lead then, apart the owner who you say is "in control, it cannot get close enough to bite someone. Same if it is appropriately chained in a garden or yard, it cannot escape

Well it seems that many people thought it obvious that banning breeds would reduce dog attacks.

That isn't the case

So if your argument is only based on your belief in your own opinion, without even a token effort to explain how your suggested responses might actually reduce bite numbers, I'll continue to point out that you seem to be using this tragic case to push your own agenda.

@Poorlykitten

Obviously long lines are an exception.

Oh obviously.

@Poorlykitten

I don’t need to link to anything, it’s just common sense. Very bizarre.

So was BSL. And that worked brilliantly! Oh wait...

After all who needs evidence when you have uninformed opinion, hyperbole and a tragedy that you can hijack to try and make your point (even tenuously)

🙄

@Flaxmeadow

Leads don't prevent bites.

I would have thought it obvious that if a dog is on an appropriate lead then, apart the owner who you say is "in control, it cannot get close enough to bite someone. Same if it is appropriately chained in a garden or yard, it cannot escape

Are these the same 'responsible owners' that allow their bull breeds to roam and attack people?

Yeah. They'll do a grand job

It'll definitely help with bites towards children in the household too. I can totally see how parents holding dogs on leads in the living room will eliminate that risk.

Foolproof.

More and more secure dog parks are popping up all over the country. As I dog owner myself I would be totally happy to keep my dog on a lead apart from in a secure dog park which I paid for to allow my dog to run free. There are too many dogs nowadays for dogs to be allowed to run around off leads.

I think give it a few years and it will be expected that you keep your dog on a lead.

You are definitely a stuck record. You obviously aren’t pushing your own agenda at all??? I do believe this is mostly what posters do on this platform, I shan’t apologise for it and neither should you but your very odd statements about leads not helping to prevent bites makes me realise this argument is totally futile as I don’t think your logic is , how shall I put it, erm, very logical. I’m bowing out.

@Poorlykitten

You are definitely a stuck record. You obviously aren’t pushing your own agenda at all??? I do believe this is mostly what posters do on this platform, I shan’t apologise for it and neither should you but your very odd statements about leads not helping to prevent bites makes me realise this argument is totally futile as I don’t think your logic is , how shall I put it, erm, very logical. I’m bowing out.

Yep do that. Definitely don't explain the reasoning.

Why would you chain a dog up in the garden?

@Indoctro

More and more secure dog parks are popping up all over the country. As I dog owner myself I would be totally happy to keep my dog on a lead apart from in a secure dog park which I paid for to allow my dog to run free. There are too many dogs nowadays for dogs to be allowed to run around off leads.

I think give it a few years and it will be expected that you keep your dog on a lead.

There are issues with dog parks too. They can work very well if dogs aren't overcrowded and aren't allowed to overwhelm each other.

Some dogs find them very frightening and unenjoyable (like doggy daycare)

They also wouldn't really address the issues of training/behaviour/dog bites in the home.

I agree that they are a useful resource for dogs with crap recall etc. though