What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

@solidaritea are you genuinely saying that you cannot tell the difference between singling a child out in front of the rest of the class for a good laugh and using humour to soften the blow when giving a child personal feedback?

I do similar with the reading a child's work to them to highlight missing full stops, then praise them when they see what is missing and ask them to go and fix it. What I don't do is stop the class, read it out breathlessly to all as a laugh then ask the other children to avoid pulling a "Sophie" when they're writing.

Conflating privately giving children constructive feedback with a bit of humour to soften the blow and publicly calling them out and inviting laughter from the rest of the class about it is a bit disingenuous.

Yes it's horrible when people aren't nice or make fun of you.

@bellesausage I am sorry you feel awful about the thread. You said I thought you were a bully but I didn't say anything like that. I have had helpful and critical comments here too, and I am taking what is helpful.

The real difference between a good teacher that fucked up and a not so good teacher is how they react when they are made aware they fucked up.

Defensiveness , dismissing the child's feelings and hiding behind "but no one else has ever complained " is a good indicator that not only they get it wrong, but they're very likely to keep getting it wrong.

I work with kids in primary. I fuck up sometimes. I always apologise, even when no one says anything if it's niggling me that it wasn't quite right.

In all my years at the school, I've only had one parent complain and no one really took it seriously anyways. However, it bothered me how my comment was interpreted and that the child was upset so I had a chat with them,apologised,explained what I meant but said that regardless of what I meant the comment was uncalled for and unnecessary. I had a great relationship with that child afterwards. They haven't been in my class for 2 years and I still get little notes or cards sometimes for the holidays.

It would've been easy (so much easier) to dismiss it and pretend it didn't happen or keep a distance in case they complained again, but instead I worked hard to rebuild trust and form a bond with them.

@accesstheinternet

Thank you for your reply

I was very surprised that this thread moved very quickly from Charlie, to Charlie probably being a "PITA" (In which case the whole situation is even more unhelpful and likely to cement problematic behaviours out of resentment) to "but banter from teachers is affirmative and bonding" in respect of teenagers and not the relevant age group, who developmentally won't be quite up to speed with social nuance, and then the polarised "Everyone's hating on teachers who are really the victims here because they can't win / introduce humour" and people quite rightly trying to say how much more thoughtless banter can damage growing children further down the line.

I kept thinking - but what about Charlie????

I agree teachers have a very difficult job, made moreso by the stress of lockdown, but the best interests of children should be the paramount focus because they don't have the maturity nor complete control of their feelings and reactions because apparently things like that don't get cemented until they are around 25. Which surely professionals dealing with children should know and adapt their techniques as they go along.

It is amazing how the little injustices experienced in childhood, that should, according to adult wisdom be things to "just get over" can influence and inform the behaviour of people, even subconsciously, and sometimes until you can fully unpick and identify those things, you can't easily recognise that sort of impact.

The immediate feeling you get as a child when someone you are told to respect and obey, does or says something that undermines your trust in that person can come back just as strongly when you are faced with a resonant situation later on, and if you can, in the moment understand that and modify your response to be adult, rather than child, that's great. But it also explains why people sometimes react totally irrationally in challenging situations, because the instinct is defensive, even if we're not sure why.

I hope Charlie is ok. And the fact that you know this is a problematic situation shows he has people on side, which is great. But what of the child without that recognition and support - this is why it is, IMHO, worth pursuing with the teacher as much for her sake as Charlie's and his classmates, who have been unwittingly drawn into a situation they don't need to be a part of either.

I think you posted that this happened at the beginning of the latest French lockdown, which explains the posters who may have missed that post talking about leaving it so long to post. So it is a current issue, and if I understand correctly, it's only for a month at the moment. I hope if remote learning is being applied, that the teacher drops individually aimed banter, and keeps their humour general.

Honestly, this has become an entirely pointless conversation, because there are too many personal experiences that are colouring people's views of what I, and other teachers who do understand what I'm talking about, are saying, and not enough experience of actually teaching children OF SECONDARY AGE to understand the dynamics of secondary classrooms and the role of humour as both a relationship building and behaviour management strategy.

I am a very reflective practitioner. It's why teaching is so exhausting, actually. You're constantly stopping, thinking, beating yourself up, considering how you could have done x, y or z differently. You want to do the best for the kids, but you're not perfect, and sometimes you make bad judgement calls. These stay with you. You try your best to learn from them, and you try your best not to repeat them. But we are all human, we all say things in haste and repent at leisure. The expectation that teachers should get it right 100% of the time is totally unrealistic.

I don't indulge in 'banter' - I didn't use that word to describe my interactions with children deliberately, because banter is often indulged in by poor teachers who want to be popular and get on side with the kids, at expense of the more vulnerable ones in the room. I don't make fun of children or put them on the spot or humiliate them or any of the other things that I have been accused of.

I work in a tiny school where I have 15 children in a class. This year I only teach the upper end of the secondary range and the 16, 17 and 18 year olds I teach, I have taught since they were 11. So some of them I have known for 7 years. I see them more than my own friends and family. So yes, I do know them. Much better than your teachers might have known you. I know their parents. I know their family situations. I make it my business to know these things, so that I can do my best for them when they're in my classroom.

I can't be bothered to keep engaging with people who just want to be abusive and further their own agenda. I'm not a perfect teacher. I do reflect on my practice, constantly. I'm always rethinking and readjusting and stepping back and considering how I could have handled situations better. I don't make it my business to bully children. Maybe, one or two children across my entire career might have taken something I've said to them in the wrong spirit and been upset by it, and that is of course devastating and regrettable. I would never have intended that reaction. But who of us can say we have 100% positive interactions with everyone we meet, ever? Who of us can say we've always judged every situation perfectly and never said anything they have lived to regret?

Please don't expect perfection from others when you are far from perfect yourself. I love the kids I teach. I do my best for them, every day. I use humour, along with many other strategies, such as praise and encouragement, to build a safe and supportive environment. I use my judgement and experience carefully to ensure that my classroom is a place where children want to be. When I slip up, I always own it, I always apologise, and I always strive to make amends.

I'm not a bully. I'm not a bad teacher. I'm a human doing her best in a tough job.

I'm bowing out. Continue bullying me if you like, if it makes you feel better about yourself, but I shan't be reading. I wish you all a happy Easter Weekend.

BelleSausage, I don't know if you're still here, but I do know what you mean about diffusing a situation with humour, and the endless tension of dealing with repeated infractions whilst also trying to teach a class AND prevent escalation. I have never felt physically threatened by a male student, but I have taught quite a few older males who a) felt insecure being a student, b) hated having a younger teacher, c) especially hated having a younger female teacher. They act out; you ask them not to; the entire lesson disappears because they're so outraged.

Plenty of times, I've had to find indirect and fake-lighthearted ways of dealing with them. It drives me crazy, because although it manages the situation, I feel like I'm pandering to them, and that other students will see this (and feel justifiably aggrieved when I just address their own issues more directly). Sometimes, done exactly the right way, it makes them realise how badly they're behaving and they pull themselves together. Sometimes it's just a step up from ignoring them: I see what you're doing, and I'm not going to do much but I SEE IT. All in all, it sucks, and I don't see that there's any perfect way of dealing with it.

If it happened like this then it’s totally unacceptable and I literally don’t understand why a teacher would think it was ok.
I think with the “gentle ribbing” people are talking about, you really need to know your kids to be able to do it! There’s children in my class I would NEVER joke with like that because they a) would not know how to respond and b) feel bad that they couldn’t “take a joke” or join in with the ribbing if you get me. Those are the children who hate drawing attention to themselves, and I find when they do something silly by mistake it really helps if I always commiserate with them and say “oh don’t worry, I trip over at home all the time! Once, I....”

Then there’s other children who love “banter”. It ONLY works if they feel absolutely secure that it comes from a place of total fondness, and they really know you are always in their corner. When that relationship is there it can be so fun on both sides.

What this teacher did though doesn’t fall into that category! I have a child in my class who really struggles with his temper and other kids wind him up because it’s funny. NEVER would I draw attention to it, let alone bloody encourage other kids to join in!

I can't be bothered to keep engaging with people who just want to be abusive and further their own agenda.

What agenda? And you're not engaging. All you do is post long messages about how you're a lovely teacher, dismiss all concerns and issues raised, do some textbook 'vipers'/'pile-on'/'bullies' thing, then say you won't post again.

The teacher thought by humiliating the child that they would influence them to change their behaviour. The teacher should be reported for bullying and for being unprofessional. The pupil should have had behavioural intervention if it was getting that bad impacting on other students. The teacher must have been stressed by the behaviour.

[quote Introvertedbuthappy]@solidaritea are you genuinely saying that you cannot tell the difference between singling a child out in front of the rest of the class for a good laugh and using humour to soften the blow when giving a child personal feedback?

I do similar with the reading a child's work to them to highlight missing full stops, then praise them when they see what is missing and ask them to go and fix it. What I don't do is stop the class, read it out breathlessly to all as a laugh then ask the other children to avoid pulling a "Sophie" when they're writing.

Conflating privately giving children constructive feedback with a bit of humour to soften the blow and publicly calling them out and inviting laughter from the rest of the class about it is a bit disingenuous.[/quote]
You are conflating issues too. I've not read anyone suggesting that doing what you suggest here is OK. Even the poster who everyone is calling a bully. Lateness in teenagers is very different to struggling with an aspect of learning.

And yes, I would read out examples to the class, where appropriate. My class know that X writes a lot but forgets his capital letters, that Y often forgets the placeholder when doing long multiplication, that Z took ages to remember how to spell because. Because not everything can be a private conversation. And they are a team - when Z spelt "because" correctly, 3 kids around him cheered. My classes make excellent progress; it wouldn't be possible if every one of these situations were a private conversation.

I am a very reflective practitioner @msbehavin

This is one of those ' Do not say' moments. Its very hard to take claims to be reflective seriously from someone who has shown absolutely no self-reflection at all but insists, ' but I am not like those other teachers and you guys just hate all teachers anyway!'
msbehavin, you may think it is ok to label a child by their mistake to such an extent that you encourage other children to laugh at them by saying ' don't do a Susan'. You may genuinely believe that is not humiliating the child or laughing at them or putting them on the spot.
You may genuinely believe that creates an atmosphere of kindness and love. But so many of us know that is not true, and have told you how it feels.

I too am a teacher with over 20 years experience and I think @msbehavin is completely wrong and actually quite deluded about the impact they may be having on others. I know of a primary teacher who is very like her. She thinks she is hilarious- cracking very similar jokes and assuming that everyone is on board. In truth she has created an atmosphere where it's ok to mock others and call them names. One of her ex students is now a long term school refuser who talks of nightmares that feature said teacher and many other ex students have had a significant erosion of their self confidence for which a number are receiving counselling.

So, @msbehavin, next time you 'hilariously' make these jokes at a child's expense, you should ask yourself what your response would be if they replied to you in a similar way. Would you laugh along or would you tell that child off? Either option actually would be problematic, wouldn't it. You would either be condoning rudeness or being a total hypocrite. You are not an equal to those who you teach. The moral higher ground is really the only place a teacher should ever be. My classroom is fun, enjoyable, friendly etc but it is also SAFE for all children.

Although thinking about it, the only thing I really banter with the kids about is football. E.g. “let’s use a relative clause in a sentence. Spurs, who are the worst team in the premier league, have a terrible goalkeeper” (most of my class are spurs fans and they then all take the piss out of my team).

And I receive a lot more than I dish out 😂

I think it’s important not to focus your jokes on something personal about the child.

There was a case in France where a teen commit suicide and the teacher was held responsible in court for encouraging the other children to bully them. That isn't this situation, the school here is absolutely fantastic in the main, and this particular teacher has some good points, but what has happened here is not ok, could get out of hand, and this should be seen as a worthwhile discussion generally, not as teacher bashing.

I also want to say thanks again for all the helpful insights and posts.

@katakata

BelleSausage, I don't know if you're still here, but I do know what you mean about diffusing a situation with humour, and the endless tension of dealing with repeated infractions whilst also trying to teach a class AND prevent escalation. I have never felt physically threatened by a male student, but I have taught quite a few older males who a) felt insecure being a student, b) hated having a younger teacher, c) especially hated having a younger female teacher. They act out; you ask them not to; the entire lesson disappears because they're so outraged.

Plenty of times, I've had to find indirect and fake-lighthearted ways of dealing with them. It drives me crazy, because although it manages the situation, I feel like I'm pandering to them, and that other students will see this (and feel justifiably aggrieved when I just address their own issues more directly). Sometimes, done exactly the right way, it makes them realise how badly they're behaving and they pull themselves together. Sometimes it's just a step up from ignoring them: I see what you're doing, and I'm not going to do much but I SEE IT. All in all, it sucks, and I don't see that there's any perfect way of dealing with it.

It sounds like hard work! Really helpful to get this perspective too.

@katakata

I can't be bothered to keep engaging with people who just want to be abusive and further their own agenda.

What agenda? And you're not engaging. All you do is post long messages about how you're a lovely teacher, dismiss all concerns and issues raised, do some textbook 'vipers'/'pile-on'/'bullies' thing, then say you won't post again.

I don't need to acknowledge the concerns and issues raised by people who are making wild assumptions about my teaching. You've never seen me teach. You've never met me. You have no idea about the children who are in my classroom. Why would I need to take advice from people who know nothing about me and my professional experience and have no training in the job I do?

I have acknowledged that sometimes I get it wrong. I do reflect on my practice all the time. But I know that I'm a good teacher because year after year the children and the parents tell me so. I'm not going to self-flagellate and say 'yes you're all right, I'm a bully, thank you for showing me the light!', because the interactions being described on this thread where people have been traumatised by their teachers are NOTHING LIKE the interactions I have with my students.

I am the first person to acknowledge when I make errors and I always, without fail, apologise to students if I think I may have crossed a line or said something hasty that reflected my own mood rather than their behaviour. Look, I've been teaching for ten years - I know what I'm doing. In the first couple of years of my career, I absolutely could be guilty of getting it wrong. But these days I have a pretty good instinct of how to run a classroom. Doesn't mean I'm perfect, of course, and I'm always looking for ways to improve. I actively seek out feedback from my colleagues and from the students themselves to ensure I'm getting it right. I love my job and I love the kids I teach and I do my best. Maybe when you've gone through teacher training, done ten years on the job, and come and observed me teach, I might be more open to listening to what you have to say.

And for those of you like @boomwhacker who are saying 'I know a primary teacher like this who...' - secondary and primary teaching are so different as to basically be different jobs. You can't compare the interactions teachers have with 18 year olds to the ones they have with 8 year olds. Also, I don't call children names or encourage other children to call other students' names. This is just conjecture and surmising gone mad. The level of reasoning on this thread is concerning - I have said that sometimes gentle humour and teasing works in a secondary classroom - everyone comes on to say that they had a teacher who thought they were being funny but was actually a bully - therefore I must be exactly like them, deserve to be struck out of the teaching profession, am deluded about my own abilities, and so on and so forth.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only bullying going on anywhere in my life is the bullying that's happening on this thread. Why would I take lessons in kindness from a bunch of women who think it's ok to attack me - and others - on this thread - and who ironically say I need to consider the impact of my words - without being able to apply their own advice to themselves?

Off to enjoy my well deserved Easter hols now! Happy Easter everyone!

Thanks MistressoftheDarkSide completely missed that this happened in France. This is also useful as it can be hard to compare the two approaches from here in the U.K. and in France.

Posters here have given their perspective in U.K. schools, which may not help the OP and Charlie, although it might do!
One main difference is that in France, if a child doesn’t achieve the grades they will have to repeat the year (redoubler) and this might affect a teacher’s/parent’s/child’s approach. There are also no assemblies, no plays, clubs etc that are often used in the U.K. to help teach social reactions to situations and have a different output for a child’s emotional health.

Although this is only one opinion, this might be a useful read about French primary schools. It also mentions Peter Gumbel and a book he wrote about French education:

www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/07/sons-experience-in-french-school

The end quote from the article sounds pretty apt based on the way this thread has gone!

Now, if French schools could become less rigid, and if British schools could be more consistent, then we might all be on to something.

This is really interesting. I am an NQT so, to be honest, am not really confident enough in my teaching yet to be teasing children beyond football jokes which are on both sides. I’m still at the point where I worry about how things will be received because I’m in my first year. Initially I thought that it would be ok as long as the children know it came from a place of love, as I said in my comment.
I sort of felt like actually it’s alright, because I’ve seen my very experienced colleagues who I know absolutely love their class use it and the kids seem to love it. (As in, joking in a more personal way). However, reading this thread makes me wonder about that. I always would look at those teachers and think that at some point it would be nice to have that kind of relationship where the children trust you so much you can have a little joke like that... but maybe not!

@msbehavin

All we have to go on by how you teach is your own description in that original post. Your own words of your own approach. I've just re-read it. Its awful. Its actually worse than I remember. Its really striking that despite so many people , including other teachers, having such a strong reaction to it you aren't allowing any chink in your armour but just attack them as teacher-hating bullies.

To be clear, I am a secondary teacher. My comments regarding msbehaviour's wholly inappropriate approaches are based on that. The primary example I gave was based on the OP. It is true thought that, regardless of the age of students, the power difference is the same. You are not the equal of your students and nor are you their friend.
My comments regarding the need to take the higher moral ground as a teacher and my concerns about what you do if a student responds are absolutely relevant to secondary- in fact, a cheeky response is more likely in secondary. I am also concerned that msbehaviour feels that she knows everything there is to know about her students' home situations. This is nonsense and suggests a level of inexperience and naivety actually. To be clear, people have made judgements on your teaching based on what you have told us about it. If you are a "reflective practitioner" as you purport to be, some reflection might be needed regarding this.

Wow no matter how many people state it is not OK the "gentle teasing" teachers who know their pupils better than they know their own families will not accept any criticism of their own methods and are defensive or flounce off but they are quite happy to critic their pupils and single them out cos it's harmless interesting psychologically. Let's hope it has made them rethink and try and improve on it a bit.

'we won't miss Charlie's temper, will we', said in a kind voice with a wink and a little pat on the shoulder would be the circumstances I'd expect this comment to have been said in. Likewise with the writing down the wrong thing - if I had a child in my class who always does things like that, I'd probably make a joke of it too- 'oh dear, never mind, trust you Charlie!' - said in a lighthearted and affectionate tone

I mean, this. This. Its just awful. Most of us can see how this would not be well received by poor Charlie. He knows what 'trust charlie' means, at best it means, ' you are so hopeless, you mess up all the time. That's just who you are but we still love you.'
What a horrible message to give to a child.
@msbehavin you might want to read ' how to talk so kids will listen'
there are loads of examples in there of adults talking about the effect of such well-meaning labelling on them as a child. The siblings without rivalry one might suit too for passages on how kids feel about comparison. it really opened my eyes.

@msbehavin I see where you're coming from and get what you're saying. People slating you and calling you a bully is grossly unfair. Obviously ms knows her students very well and those who like banter with you and those who don't.
I very much doubt she would single out a shy, reserved child

Sorry I just don't understand why @msbehavin thinks horrible words are made unhorrible if you say them in a 'lighthearted, affectionate tone'.

It just doesn't work like that and we all know it as we have all been on the receiving end of this!