What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

@randomer

How on earth do the Charlies and Sarahs cope in a job ,I wonder?

How many 10 year olds have jobs. We stopped putting kids up chimneys along time ago.

@Lndnmummy no he isn't, this was pretty much a one off, he didn't fall out with the other child, the other child (who happened to be a girl) had pushed him from behind hard, and it had made his head fall backwards and had hurt and he had lost his temper out of shock. He can be a PITA but no more or less than the other children in the class. He was playing with the girl who had pushed him on the last day.

I poorly phrased that. What I meant was if a child always goes to the wrong room or something silly like that. We have a laugh about it, to let them know it’s ok, we all make mistakes, and they don’t need to worry about it. Not something wrong to do with their school work. And obviously if I knew the child were mortified about the mistake they’d made, I wouldn’t ever dream of making it into a joke. As I’ve said many times before, I know the children I teach well enough to feel confident that the vast majority of the time, I’ve judged my interactions with them confident that the vast majority of the time, I’ve judged my interactions with them correctly.

What about the kids who are mortified but you don't know? Is it OK to damage them? You feel confident but are you right? Is it worth the risk? Have you ever considered the damage you do when you do get it wrong, even if it is a minority of times?

We have a laugh about it, to let them know it’s ok, we all make mistakes, and they don’t need to worry about it. Not something wrong to do with their school work

I never thought you meant getting school work wrong, I thought you meant the sort of thing you described. The fact that you describe these things as 'silly' says a lot. How about not labelling the child, or encouraging them to see themselves differently? I, like others, have had experiences of people in authority laughing at mistakes I've made and then saying, 'don't worry, its fine.' It never feels great. The words after the being laughed fall hollow.

I have to say that at school I never regarded my secondary school teachers as 'knowing me really well.' You only see them for the lesson for their subject alongside, as you say, a lot of other children.
There's not really that much time to get to know children well.

For someone who seems to think that publicly pointing out a child's errors is fine, you see remarkably tense when others here point out what they think you are getting wrong.

@Lndnmummy

Sorry didn’t read the full thread. I asked if Charlie was black as in my experience this type of treatment is sadly really common for black boys in British schools.

My DD isn't a boy, obviously, but she is mixed race and was in a class with 29 white children.

Thinking about all I have read on here, the memories it has raised, I realise that the only person in the world I truly hate is the teacher who did this to my child. I was brought up a Christian and that to hate is wrong but I can't help it.

@ancientgran

I poorly phrased that. What I meant was if a child always goes to the wrong room or something silly like that. We have a laugh about it, to let them know it’s ok, we all make mistakes, and they don’t need to worry about it. Not something wrong to do with their school work. And obviously if I knew the child were mortified about the mistake they’d made, I wouldn’t ever dream of making it into a joke. As I’ve said many times before, I know the children I teach well enough to feel confident that the vast majority of the time, I’ve judged my interactions with them confident that the vast majority of the time, I’ve judged my interactions with them correctly.

What about the kids who are mortified but you don't know? Is it OK to damage them? You feel confident but are you right? Is it worth the risk? Have you ever considered the damage you do when you do get it wrong, even if it is a minority of times?

So what do you want teachers to do? Never say anything to children beyond delivering the content of their lesson? Should we never use humour, never crack a joke, in case someone gets offended? Any communication can be taken the wrong way. Every type of communication involves a risk. Some people hate compliments, for example.

Look, I’m tired of defending myself on here. Think what you want of me - I know the truth!

@accesstheinternet

I appreciate your reply. I saw it as a teacher bashing thread because you seem to be clear that this teacher's behaviour was wrong, so why post it here at all? It has clearly dredged up a lot of ill-feeling and has led to one teacher, who I suspect has been explaining herself poorly, being told more than once that she should leave her job.

However, your OP describes a situation that shouldn't have happened. Maybe the teacher felt stressed about whatever Charlie had done and made the wrong call asking "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?" In that case, they already know that they made the wrong call. Or maybe they thought that they weren't being unkind - perhaps they meant "we won't miss Charlie's bad temper - let's have our kind Charlie back" - distancing the bad behaviour from the child is a good thing. If the latter, the teacher worded very poorly.

As for the other incident, I think I would have to have a clearer explanation to know my thoughts. I don't know what you mean by "encouraged the whole class to mock him." If it means exactly what you wrote, then you were negligent if you didn't blow the whistle immediately. I suspect it was not like that though, and you would need to explain more clearly.

I had a teacher in the first year of senior school who started off mocking and belittling me in front of the class, nobody else, just me, because I was struggling with the work. I was shy and well behaved and always tried my best, and was becoming a shadow of myself due to this treatment.

My parents raised concerns to the school but it was dismissed time and time again as just humour in the classroom. The teacher then started getting me to stand up at the front of the class to do the maths I was struggling with on the board so everyone could see how rubbish I was. She thought it was hilarious, luckily for me nobody else in the class did and they would all check on me afterwards. It eventually escalated to her screaming at me about an inch from my face, then her lobbing my compass at my face. I then started threatening suicide. All at age 11.

I was moved to a different class and she had bullying of a student on her record, apparently. How she wasn’t sacked I’ll never know. So I take a very dim view of a teacher singling a child out and making fun of them in front of the class. Should never happen, it is insidious behaviour and quite worrying in someone who should be supporting children.

I honestly don't think I can remember any of my teachers making jokes at the expense of the pupils. They made other jokes and wisecracks but never that, so it is possible.

So what do you want teachers to do? Never say anything to children beyond delivering the content of their lesson? Should we never use humour, never crack a joke, in case someone gets offended? Any communication can be taken the wrong way. Every type of communication involves a risk. Some people hate compliments, for example. I think it is appropriate to discipline a child if they do something wrong, I think it is appropriate to have humour. What isn't appropriate is to make a child the butt of your humour. It is sad that you can't see that.

It wasn't just one small throwaway comment in your post which people fixated on, msbehavin. It was the entire ethos you proudly stated; one which is depressingly recognisable to other teachers (and so well-remembered by students who've had to deal with it).

It's probably a pointless conversation, though. 99% of teachers who act like this only ever double-down when it's raised as an issue. But IME anyone who goes on about 'ribbing', 'banter' and makes a running joke of students is not just inadvertently upsetting a few fragile kids. They're deliberately using a form of class management which serves their own purposes and ignoring the negative effects. I struggle to believe that anyone who's so dismissive about these effects is adept at recognising them in the classroom, which is why all the 'but everyone's having a great time and I'd know if they weren't' justifications don't ring true.

I have no problem with humour in class, but anything directed at students, even in an ostensibly kind way, is really problematic, as is the absolute confidence that you're always pitching it at the exact right time to the person who can take it. And the awareness that, yes, you will really hurt a few people, but they're minor collateral damage to your jolly classroom.

Yes: any communication involves a risk. Different levels of risk, though. Anything that involves people being laughed at by their peers and people in authority is fairly high risk.

I don't think encouraging children to laugh at other people's mistakes is spreading a message that mistakes are okay...quite the opposite!

I'm actually disappointed that despite people sharing their very personal stories of how this approach really negatively affected their life you are basically doubling down, shrugging and suggesting that all communication is risk, and kids who were abused (like me) should just shrug it off and toughen up. I guess maybe I thought you were a reflective practitioner but it seems like as long as you are popular it doesn't matter if some young people are negatively impacted by your teasing.

You also don't know what is going on in the lives of the students you teach. I don't even pretend to know and I teach primary and have wonderful relationships with the children in my class and their families.

@accesstheinternet

Because I had already asked Dan (not kid’s real name) not to do that again. I was in the middle of teaching lesson material and had been interrupted by Dan trying to get his mate’s attention across the classroom.

Dan had ignored the previously ‘please don’t do that’ warning.

This group have me in tears almost every week. The boys do not like female teachers and go the extra mile to not do as I say. They find official warnings very triggering and I once lost half a lesson to an argument about why one boy didn’t deserve an official warning.

Parents often see teachers as confident but it is mostly an act. I often have crippling self doubt about my teaching and get my fair share of verbal abuse and some violence. And I teach in a nice school.

Anyone who thinks it is possible to teach completely calmly and consistently and not raise your voice about level or use humour to alleviate a tense situation in class when you have half the class trying to sabotage the lesson for everyone else is ridiculous.

As I said before, I think the teacher in the OP got it wrong and needs notifying so they can have a restorative convo with the kid.

But the view of teachers as over confident dick heads who get off on humiliating kids is bizarre. The emotional drain of dealing with challenging behaviour is exhausting. Being able to do so with humour often diffuses the situation that can turn ugly very quickly.

It is not appropriate for every kid and the kid should not but the butt of the joke for the whole class. Many teenage boys cannot stand to be disciplined by a woman (sad but true) and what works for male members of staff has ended with violent confrontations for me before.

If you still consider me a bully then you obviously can’t see the nuances of the situation.

@bugontree

I honestly don't think I can remember any of my teachers making jokes at the expense of the pupils. They made other jokes and wisecracks but never that, so it is possible.

That is my experience. I went to an overcrowded Catholic primary school in the 1950s. 48 kids to a class, school was strict and it had to be with 48 kids of varying abilities and TAs not having been invented, we had lots of fun but no I don't remember anyone being made fun of.

I then went to a grammar school, high expectations, some nice teachers some not but making fun of a child never happened.

@katakata

It wasn't just one small throwaway comment in your post which people fixated on, msbehavin. It was the entire ethos you proudly stated; one which is depressingly recognisable to other teachers (and so well-remembered by students who've had to deal with it).

It's probably a pointless conversation, though. 99% of teachers who act like this only ever double-down when it's raised as an issue. But IME anyone who goes on about 'ribbing', 'banter' and makes a running joke of students is not just inadvertently upsetting a few fragile kids. They're deliberately using a form of class management which serves their own purposes and ignoring the negative effects. I struggle to believe that anyone who's so dismissive about these effects is adept at recognising them in the classroom, which is why all the 'but everyone's having a great time and I'd know if they weren't' justifications don't ring true.

I have no problem with humour in class, but anything directed at students, even in an ostensibly kind way, is really problematic, as is the absolute confidence that you're always pitching it at the exact right time to the person who can take it. And the awareness that, yes, you will really hurt a few people, but they're minor collateral damage to your jolly classroom.

Yes: any communication involves a risk. Different levels of risk, though. Anything that involves people being laughed at by their peers and people in authority is fairly high risk.

100% this.

May I ask (the same as other PP) why when then last time we knew we were going into a lockdown when actually in school was last March (as the Christmas one came whilst on school holidays anyway) you are only asking for views on this over a year later?

@katakata

It wasn't just one small throwaway comment in your post which people fixated on, msbehavin. It was the entire ethos you proudly stated; one which is depressingly recognisable to other teachers (and so well-remembered by students who've had to deal with it).

It's probably a pointless conversation, though. 99% of teachers who act like this only ever double-down when it's raised as an issue. But IME anyone who goes on about 'ribbing', 'banter' and makes a running joke of students is not just inadvertently upsetting a few fragile kids. They're deliberately using a form of class management which serves their own purposes and ignoring the negative effects. I struggle to believe that anyone who's so dismissive about these effects is adept at recognising them in the classroom, which is why all the 'but everyone's having a great time and I'd know if they weren't' justifications don't ring true.

I have no problem with humour in class, but anything directed at students, even in an ostensibly kind way, is really problematic, as is the absolute confidence that you're always pitching it at the exact right time to the person who can take it. And the awareness that, yes, you will really hurt a few people, but they're minor collateral damage to your jolly classroom.

Yes: any communication involves a risk. Different levels of risk, though. Anything that involves people being laughed at by their peers and people in authority is fairly high risk.

Thank you, you have explained it perfectly.

[quote BelleSausage]@accesstheinternet

Because I had already asked Dan (not kid’s real name) not to do that again. I was in the middle of teaching lesson material and had been interrupted by Dan trying to get his mate’s attention across the classroom.

Dan had ignored the previously ‘please don’t do that’ warning.

This group have me in tears almost every week. The boys do not like female teachers and go the extra mile to not do as I say. They find official warnings very triggering and I once lost half a lesson to an argument about why one boy didn’t deserve an official warning.

Parents often see teachers as confident but it is mostly an act. I often have crippling self doubt about my teaching and get my fair share of verbal abuse and some violence. And I teach in a nice school.

Anyone who thinks it is possible to teach completely calmly and consistently and not raise your voice about level or use humour to alleviate a tense situation in class when you have half the class trying to sabotage the lesson for everyone else is ridiculous.

As I said before, I think the teacher in the OP got it wrong and needs notifying so they can have a restorative convo with the kid.

But the view of teachers as over confident dick heads who get off on humiliating kids is bizarre. The emotional drain of dealing with challenging behaviour is exhausting. Being able to do so with humour often diffuses the situation that can turn ugly very quickly.

It is not appropriate for every kid and the kid should not but the butt of the joke for the whole class. Many teenage boys cannot stand to be disciplined by a woman (sad but true) and what works for male members of staff has ended with violent confrontations for me before.

If you still consider me a bully then you obviously can’t see the nuances of the situation.[/quote]
I haven't said you were a bully and another person you said that to, said they hadn't either.

I am not sure why "Oh Dan" would be more effective than "Stop doing that Dan" for the upteenth time, but it doesn't matter.

just out of interest, reading your post, not about this thread, why not just say "Dan please don't do [whatever he is doing]" twice or more times? Why does the choice have to be "Oh Dan" or putting his name on the board?

Interestingly, an Ofsted inspector would immediately consider a lesson negatively if the teacher did what you suggest, ‘Dan, please don’t do [whatever he is doing] twice or more times’ because Dan is obviously keeping doing whatever he is doing and the teacher will be judged as not seeing that repeating the same line over again has not made a difference and has not adapted accordingly. Please note that based on only what you have written, I don’t agree with what the teacher did in your scenario.

about to go into lockdown

OP, did this happen during Lockdown 1 because the recent lockdown in January had no notice, or are you in Wales or Northern Ireland that had different lockdowns, but still a long time ago?
I’m just trying to gauge when this happened and how long ago and depending on your relationship to the situation (not sure, are you the TA in the room? You haven’t said) in that what do you want to get out of this thread and if you are the TA, why have you said nothing in all this time? Also, if it was a long time ago, how has Charlie and the teacher been, since?

@SeasonFinale

May I ask (the same as other PP) why when then last time we knew we were going into a lockdown when actually in school was last March (as the Christmas one came whilst on school holidays anyway) you are only asking for views on this over a year later?

Because this sort of bullying is so damaging and people question themselves. You get told you don't understand, the teacher knows best, you go to the Head and the teacher is backed up. It goes round and round in your head and you know you are failing your child but you are being told you are wrong.

Twenty years on I still think about it, why we couldn't get it resolved, why didn't I just pull her out of school. Don't blame the OP, it is the teacher who is in the wrong.

There can be lots of humour and shared jokes without teasing and singling out children. Genuinely don't think it is professional and I cannot fathom why anyone is claiming they know everything about the kids in their classes, you DON'T. Hope I have not fallen inadvertently into a teacher bashing thread but the teasing and hilarious banter at anyone's expense is nothing that is essential to an excellent learning environment.

So recent posters are suggesting that I am wrong to say to a child:
"How disappointing! You got full marks again!"
(child doesn't use a full stop for half a page. I know child knows how to use full stops) "Here's what you wrote (read it back, exaggerated labouring breaths) - any idea what's wrong?"
"You did the hard bits of the question and then forgot how to add up!" (again, I know the child knows how to add)

Children are the butt of those jokes. Not made to feel bad about themselves though, right? Or, genuinely, do you think these are wrong?

@Viciouslybashed

There can be lots of humour and shared jokes without teasing and singling out children. Genuinely don't think it is professional and I cannot fathom why anyone is claiming they know everything about the kids in their classes, you DON'T. Hope I have not fallen inadvertently into a teacher bashing thread but the teasing and hilarious banter at anyone's expense is nothing that is essential to an excellent learning environment.

I don't think it is teacher bashing because it is only done by a minority of teachers in my experience and other teachers agree it is wrong.

In my case I hate the teacher who did so much damage to my child, but two of my children are teachers. One teaches PE which is a particularly vulnerable area to this sort of thing in my experience, I have had conversations with him about this sort of thing, exchanged ideas on it and I know some of it made him rethink some things.

We all get things wrong, the depressing thing on here is that some teachers won't even consider that what they are doing is very negative for some children.

This thread has actually pushed me to delete my account.

So many thanks for reminding me what a shower of horrible people reside on this site.

Next time I want to be made to feel two inches tall by a bunch of strangers I’ll pop back.

Particularly hilarious considering how keen you all seem to be on being kind. Obviously that only applies to the kids.