What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

That extract from About A Boy was exactly what I was put in mind of reading msbehavins post, kat!

Good lord, the level of ill informed abuse on here has really blown up over night!

I’m just popping in to say thanks so much to everyone who does get what I’m on about and has appreciated what I meant in my description of gentle teasing. For those who have asked, yes they do tease me back. Much more so than I do them, actually!

I don’t need to rethink my teaching. I’m not a bully. I don’t need the advice of people who clearly have no idea what successfully teaching secondary aged children involves. I’m not an idiot. If I chose to make a child who turned up at school perpetually late and exhausted the butt of jokes and did nothing to find out what was really going on behind the scenes, I’d be guilty of gross misconduct for not reporting a safeguarding concern, for goodness’ sake. I know the difference between a child who is struggling and a child who gets distracted watching TV while eating their breakfast and so always leaves a bit late and misses the tube. Do you really think any decent teacher would be that obtuse?

I appreciate there are lots of people who’ve had negative experiences of school and teachers who’ve made misjudged comments that have hurt them. I experienced the same. I know how it feels to be made to feel small by a teacher or humiliated in front of a class. As such I strive to never do the same to the children in front of me. Yes it’s possible that on occasion I might get it wrong for one or two children. I’m human. It happens. And I would hope that the children would know that and understand that, like them, I’m not perfect. It’s all part of learning how the world works. It’s impossible to create a teaching environment where every child loves every teacher and no one is ever upset or offended or feels overlooked. When you have 33 kids in your class you can’t always get it right for every kid every time. There’s always going to be the possibility that someone can rub someone up the wrong way or misjudge a situation. When I know I’ve said something out of line - usually when I’m exhausted or stressed - I always apologise to the children and explain it’s not them who did something wrong, it’s me. Working with young people - with any people! - is an inexact science. But the vast majority of the time I know I do get it right because I have classes of children who enjoy my lessons, who thrive under my care and who seek me out to talk to when they’re struggling at school or at home. I’ve got an entire suitcase overflowing with letters and cards from thankful students when I’ve left schools. I do know what I’m doing, and I have the experience of a decade behind me to support the judgements I make. I wouldn’t ever presume to tell someone how to do their job, but it’s so interesting how so many people think they can tell a teacher how to do theirs.

I find it highly ironic that I’m being called a bully by people who are throwing all sorts of personal and nasty insults at me. Doing it online doesn’t make it ok. I really don’t need to take advice on how to be kind to children from a bunch of vipers on mumsnet who don’t seem to know what the word kindness means, and can’t wait to pile on anyone who looks like a potential victim for their bile. Those of you crying bully need to look in the mirror.

Once again, I’m very sorry to anyone who experienced teachers who were nasty and who humiliated them. But please don’t project your experiences onto every other teacher you meet. We’re not all the same. Teaching is a thankless job at the best of times - most of us are genuinely doing our best for the kids because we care about them and want the best for them. It’s the kids who make the job worth doing. I’d never intentionally hurt any of them. I’m shocked that so many people on here think so little of the teaching profession. No wonder there’s such a recruitment crisis. We’re more hated than estate agents!

BelleSausage
I think that's where some posters are missing the nuances of classroom management to be honest.

Most of us probably agree there's some teachers who misuse banter, think they're cool, they use their authority in the classroom to boost their ego, they pride themselves on being the cool teacher etc and that sort of approach is rarely healthy and professional for all.
But when some posters dismiss any form of jest and humour in the classroom, they miss the fact that classroom management is a craft that is developed and relies on hundreds of small judgements every lesson. It's not as black and white as humour = bad and bullying.

What a sterile and humourless place schools would be if teachers were not allowed a gentle bit of banter with the pupils.

@msbehavin- you sound like a great teacher. I think those that don't work in schools have little idea about how difficult some children's behaviour is to manage and still be able to teach the rest of the pupils effectively. Creating an inclusive and nurturing classroom would be difficult if you weren't allowed to use some humour. There's a world of difference in gently humouring a child and controlling them by peer ridicule. You sound like you have it about right. And I agree with you, that once you have have a trusting and honest relationship, then just like in a loving family, a bit of teasing is healthy- and it also works both ways where the children can tease the adults too without being chastised for it.

I've just RTFT and everything else aside, I think the context is really important here.

This all came about just before lockdown when the class was discussing what it would be like. So we have 9/10 year olds who will have a fairly good grasp of this huge change to their routines caused by a potentially life threatening virus that is turning the world on its head - even with the best will in the world trying to shield them from it they won't have missed the anxiety brewing overall. They are all going to be separated for a long time and what the teacher said implies that it will be a relief not to have to put up with Charlie and his bad temper, and encouraged the class to see him as "other". That is what made me go WTAF? Singling out one child based on an incident that had hopefully been dealt with and resolved, when I thought good practise was to move forward positively and not use it as a stick to beat thm with.

Even if there was a pattern of challenging behaviour, "bantz" in the classroom about it in this context is inappropriate.

And then you have the second incident, encouraging the class to mock him.

Charlie's reaction suggests he really didn't find this funny. The door had been opened for bullying by the teacher.

I realise that the account may be inaccurate, that teacher was under stress, that the context was an unprecedented situation, but surely that should have made the teacher even more mindful and certainly not encouraged her class to see Charlie as a problem just as they are all going to be separated from each other, leaving him unsure of how his classmates feel about him?

Personally I think that's pretty irresponsible. 9/10 year olds can easily fixate on things - they can fester and affect people for years, as many posters here have testified. Will his return to the classroom have been underpinned by this incident? Will he tough it out and confirm the previous "opinion" as a defence or be withdrawn and wary?

I just feel pretty sad for Charlie.

I would think that Charlie is a pain in the backside and the teacher had had enough but not delt with the situation very well.

@RachelRavenRoth

I'm a teacher (in secondary) and good natured, gentle teasing of students and their foibles is part of creating a warm classroom environment. I will rib kids for always being late, always forgetting things - along the lines of declaring it to be a miracle if a kid who's always late turns up on time, telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong, etc. It's all done in love, the kids know I don't mean anything by it, and they love having a giggle at themselves and each other. That is really not ok.

No , its really not okay. Its actually bullying. And like all bullying that is done in this insidious underhand way, the victim often feels unable to stand up to it but is forced to laugh along. I bet there are pupils you do this too who absolutely do not experience this as being done ' 'with love'. You are labelling children by their failures. For god's sake, if there is a child where you have developed a running 'joke' in the class that they 'always do things wrong' how on earth is that child ever meant to develop self-worth? How would you feel if in the staff room you were the running joke as the shit teacher who always got things wrong, with everyone laughing at your ineptitude daily. ? Your every mistake magnified and solidified as your essential rubbishness? You are a bully.

I realise that the account may be inaccurate, that teacher was under stress, that the context was an unprecedented situation, but surely that should have made the teacher even more mindful and certainly not encouraged her class to see Charlie as a problem just as they are all going to be separated from each other, leaving him unsure of how his classmates feel about him?

Absolutely this. I sometimes think that one of the problems is that a lot of people who go into teaching are people who are quite confident extroverts, socially confident and liked school. I think some of them have empathy bypasses about children with different personalities from them.

know the difference between a child who is struggling and a child who gets distracted watching TV while eating their breakfast and so always leaves a bit late and misses the tube.

How?

@BelleSausage eh? I’ve never used the word bully, not once. I dont know why you’re so by king me out. I was saying that I had experience of being the student who was ‘bantered’ with and it made my situation worse. Sorry if that isn’t what you want to hear, but it’s what happened to me and a lot of other posters on this thread. Jokes are fine to a degree, but taking the piss all the time can be detrimental. Making fun of me in front of all the other students when I had been at home hiding because I couldn’t face going out did not help me go out again in the future. I don’t know what else you want me to say, I am not having a go at teachers, but I am saying that ‘banter’ has consequences.

You’re putting words into my mouth, I never called anyone a bully.

telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong

And that’s horrible.

Last night I thought there was a basically nice woman who had been a bit thoughtless.

Now I just think bully.

Somebody who uses my children as the butt of their jokes would have no unsupervised access to my children. It is unkind and it is very upsetting for the children on the receiving end.

This teacher sounds awful. There is no need to single out a child like this. And I don’t think it’s teacher bashing to say this.

My daughter has had minor issues with a teacher this year that would usually just wash straight over her, but because of everything else these small but quite catty comments have upset her more than they should. I did wonder if the teacher hadn’t realised, but when she was particularly harsh one day and then deleted the comment from Teams, I felt that she actually knew that she was crossing the line. I reported it to the head and asked him to speak to her to ensure that she understood that while dd is usually confident, she was struggling a bit, just as the teacher herself may have been, and to please be a little more gentle. Thankfully my dd has me to speak for her. Not all kids are as lucky and it is often the kids that may demonstrate the worst behaviour that need the most support.

@msbehavin

I'm a teacher (in secondary) and good natured, gentle teasing of students and their foibles is part of creating a warm classroom environment. I will rib kids for always being late, always forgetting things - along the lines of declaring it to be a miracle if a kid who's always late turns up on time, telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong, etc. It's all done in love, the kids know I don't mean anything by it, and they love having a giggle at themselves and each other.

I'm wondering whether what Charlie (presumably your child) has reported back to you is a misunderstanding of a teacher trying to make a joke to show Charlie that their earlier temper tantrum was forgiven - 'we won't miss Charlie's temper, will we', said in a kind voice with a wink and a little pat on the shoulder would be the circumstances I'd expect this comment to have been said in. Likewise with the writing down the wrong thing - if I had a child in my class who always does things like that, I'd probably make a joke of it too- 'oh dear, never mind, trust you Charlie!' - said in a lighthearted and affectionate tone, showing it didn't matter and that I found their behaviour endearing.

I'm wondering whether Charlie has misinterpreted the teacher's behaviour and has read what was meant to be kindness as being nasty. Some kids really don't understand sarcasm, for example. If being unkind is totally out of character for the teacher, I'd be more inclined to think this is the explanation.

I am wondering why you're asking this now, as it was clearly an incident that happened a few weeks ago (before lockdown). Also, if it was a few days before lockdown, do bear in mind stress and anxiety levels amongst both teachers and children would have been high. Perhaps the teacher did snap. Perhaps Charlie overreacted. The truth could be somewhere in the middle. I'd contact the teacher, and arrange a meeting to discuss Charlie's feelings about the incidents. Even if it's all been a misunderstanding, the teacher needs to know how Charlie interpreted the comments so that they can adapt their communication with him accordingly in future.

You have no idea. You shouldn't be doing a bit of lighthearted mickey taking of a child.

You really need to reflect on how it feels to be singled out. Say you were in a staff meeting and the head teacher said "Msbehavin has got it wrong again." "Hope Msbehavin has a good summer holiday and comes back in a better mood." Would you feel OK about that, even with an affectionate tone and even with an pat on the shoulder.

My DD had a teacher like you, she would try to justify her actions and she got away with it quite well until the Head of Governors witnessed it and she was the one who got pulled up publicly. Oh how she cried.

@LolaSmiles

BelleSausage I think that's where some posters are missing the nuances of classroom management to be honest.

Most of us probably agree there's some teachers who misuse banter, think they're cool, they use their authority in the classroom to boost their ego, they pride themselves on being the cool teacher etc and that sort of approach is rarely healthy and professional for all.
But when some posters dismiss any form of jest and humour in the classroom, they miss the fact that classroom management is a craft that is developed and relies on hundreds of small judgements every lesson. It's not as black and white as humour = bad and bullying.

I don't think it is wrong to use humour but it is wrong to make a child the butt of that humour.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

I've just RTFT and everything else aside, I think the context is really important here.

This all came about just before lockdown when the class was discussing what it would be like. So we have 9/10 year olds who will have a fairly good grasp of this huge change to their routines caused by a potentially life threatening virus that is turning the world on its head - even with the best will in the world trying to shield them from it they won't have missed the anxiety brewing overall. They are all going to be separated for a long time and what the teacher said implies that it will be a relief not to have to put up with Charlie and his bad temper, and encouraged the class to see him as "other". That is what made me go WTAF? Singling out one child based on an incident that had hopefully been dealt with and resolved, when I thought good practise was to move forward positively and not use it as a stick to beat thm with.

Even if there was a pattern of challenging behaviour, "bantz" in the classroom about it in this context is inappropriate.

And then you have the second incident, encouraging the class to mock him.

Charlie's reaction suggests he really didn't find this funny. The door had been opened for bullying by the teacher.

I realise that the account may be inaccurate, that teacher was under stress, that the context was an unprecedented situation, but surely that should have made the teacher even more mindful and certainly not encouraged her class to see Charlie as a problem just as they are all going to be separated from each other, leaving him unsure of how his classmates feel about him?

Personally I think that's pretty irresponsible. 9/10 year olds can easily fixate on things - they can fester and affect people for years, as many posters here have testified. Will his return to the classroom have been underpinned by this incident? Will he tough it out and confirm the previous "opinion" as a defence or be withdrawn and wary?

I just feel pretty sad for Charlie.

Exactly right. Thanks for such a thoughtful post, much appreciated.

@BelleSausage just out of interest, reading your post, not about this thread, why not just say "Dan please don't do [whatever he is doing]" twice or more times? Why does the choice have to be "Oh Dan" or putting his name on the board?

@daffodilsandprimroses

know the difference between a child who is struggling and a child who gets distracted watching TV while eating their breakfast and so always leaves a bit late and misses the tube.

How?

How do you think?

By building a relationship with them over time, and knowing what’s usual behaviour for them and what isn’t. By having a chat with them after the lesson to check if everything’s ok. By having a word with their form tutor to see if there’s a pattern going on with their lateness. By giving the parents a ring to see if there’s anything going on we should know about. By watching carefully and listening carefully and using my experience of getting to know thousands of children over several years’ teaching to guide me.

@BelleSausage

@ Hamhockandmash

I never said either of those things. I just said that you can’t be every child’s favourite teacher. Do you disagree?

And I never ‘take the piss’ which would be wrong. You are massively projecting. I suspect that you don’t much like any teacher based on your comments. I’m sorry you came across an awful teacher at school not doesn’t mean we are all monsters.

I think it is interesting that you bring up being the favourite teacher. My DD was bullied by other girls aided and abetted by a teacher who loved to be popular and was quite happy to throw one or two kids to the wolves to get there. Her favourite teacher was one who didn't use humour, who was strict and every child knew exactly where they stood.

The "jokey" popular teacher was such a good teacher that my 10 year old attempted suicide and self harmed. She could cope with the kids but the teacher should have been a safe person and she wasn't.

I think the message on this thread is clear. No teacher should mock bully or tease a student for their behaviour or their work where this could open them up to peer ridicule and shaming. Charlie was angry for being pushed. Even as an adult I would be angry. He should have his feelings validated and acknowledged. Where is the child who pushed him?

This teaching method is what is currently destroying my ds confidence in school. When the teacher mocks him, the kids join in. He now thinks he’s stupid, and is struggling to cope.

For @msbehavin you may be doing a great job for the majority in your class and are self aware of your actions, but this is about shaming children in front of their peers, not learning to accept mistakes with good humour to build confidence. There is a difference, but clearly from the PPs, it’s a fine line, and many adults are still crushed from these experiences.

For kids who are late to school, have forgotten homework, coats, etc. It’s not their fault age 9/10. They’re still learning responsibility and you do not know what’s going on at home. Who on earth thinks it’s okay to make vitriolic remarks toward a young child who isn’t necessarily in control of what time they get to school, nor are they fully in control of their emotions, so Charlie’s reaction is connected to being physically hurt by another. Instead of supporting him, the teacher is supporting the other child. It is doubtful that Charlie feels safe in that environment. He has no one to stand up for him, so he is having to defend himself.

Yes, teachers aren’t perfect. You can only do your best, but for the OP, I think it’s clear the other teacher has crossed a line and should have handled it better.

[quote accesstheinternet]@BelleSausage just out of interest, reading your post, not about this thread, why not just say "Dan please don't do [whatever he is doing]" twice or more times? Why does the choice have to be "Oh Dan" or putting his name on the board?[/quote]
That is an interesting question.

@msbehavin

I think its really telling that despite numerous account of people telling you how behaviour like yours was really upsetting to them in school, you insist that you know best and its fine.
You explicitly said that you single out for 'teasing' a child who is known to always get everything wrong. That must be awful for that child! S/he may laugh along so that they aren't targeted even further or in new ways, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt.
It is hard to imagine a child been 'teased' and labelled by their teacher as the kid ' who always gets things wrong' can ever had a positive outcome.
And you really shouldn't presume you know kids as well as you do. Kids learn how to mask really well at school.

Late to the thread but just to add my own experience - When I started school at 5, I was in a class with a youngish woman teacher. I was very well behaved, polite and quiet. Unfortunately, the teacher singled me out to pick on and bully. I have no idea why and I was the only one. She taught our class for two years (unluckily for me). It all came to a head when we were cutting out paper shapes and had been instructed not to cut our hair etc with the scissors. A child found a lock of hair on the floor and took it to teacher. She then sent all the blonde children out to line up and queue at the door of the room, called us in one by one and asked each if they had cut their hair. Each said no and was sent to sit on the floor with the rest of the class. Halfway through came my turn. I said (truthfully) no too. I was pulled aside until all had been questioned too. Then she sat me on her knee and kept trying to get me to "tell the truth" . Obviously I stuck to what was the truth, so she told the class that "we are all going to send mrs joyful to coventry until she tells the truth". We were 5 and no-one knew what that meant so she had to explain they were not to talk to me. I told my mum when I went home, resulting in her talking to the head and teacher being severely reprimanded. We quickly afterwards found out the perpetrator was a boy sitting near me and, looking back, I realise teacher knew all along (he would always do what we had been told not to and she would laugh). She just hated me. I do not tolerate any bullying and, especially now I am an outspoken older person, will intervene when I see it happening. What you describe in Charlie's treatment is bullying.

Is Charlie black?

Sorry didn’t read the full thread. I asked if Charlie was black as in my experience this type of treatment is sadly really common for black boys in British schools.

@daffodilsandprimroses

telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong

And that’s horrible.

Last night I thought there was a basically nice woman who had been a bit thoughtless.

Now I just think bully.

Somebody who uses my children as the butt of their jokes would have no unsupervised access to my children. It is unkind and it is very upsetting for the children on the receiving end.

I poorly phrased that. What I meant was if a child always goes to the wrong room or something silly like that. We have a laugh about it, to let them know it’s ok, we all make mistakes, and they don’t need to worry about it. Not something wrong to do with their school work. And obviously if I knew the child were mortified about the mistake they’d made, I wouldn’t ever dream of making it into a joke. As I’ve said many times before, I know the children I teach well enough to feel confident that the vast majority of the time, I’ve judged my interactions with them correctly. I do see them every day. We see each other more than our own families at the moment!

For the millionth time, I’m not a bully. Behaviour management and relationship building in schools is a very fine art and requires a huge amount of emotional intelligence and a lot of reading of individual kids as well as the room. I do not make children the butt of jokes, single them out for criticism or ridicule, or all of the other nonsense being spouted on here by people keen to lay all the faults of their own teachers when they were at school on me.

This is why teachers struggle to enjoy their jobs. The level of misunderstanding, assumption and nastiness directed at us by the general public is really hard to cope with sometimes. We literally can’t do right for doing wrong.