What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

@rawlikesushi

Here we go again. Looks like op will have to look elsewhere for her specific issue.

I'm not sure OP necessarily minds. Her responses have been discussion-based, rather than being from the perspective of how to help Charlie.

Also, that's threads for you. People participate & they evolve.

The matters being discussed are germane to the OP.

And also OP is an observer here, not Charlie's mum or anything who is writing in upset at how her child is feeling.

Thank you so much @rawlikesushi for being so kind. I'm glad you have been able to understand what I have been trying to express.

People's bad experiences of their own school days do not give them the right to accuse all teachers of being guilty of the same behaviour.

Just because you didn't like being mildly teased in class, doesn't mean that every child feels that way.

I don't claim to be a perfect teacher. But I do know my students and I do know what works for them. As a professional, I weigh up all my classroom management decisions carefully, taking into account all of the context. Inevitably sometimes I will get it wrong. But the suggestion that using humour and mild teasing is always wrong, is always bullying and is blanket appalling behaviour from a teacher, is an incredibly simplistic way of viewing the myriad of interactions that take place in the classroom.

Some teachers abuse their power. Some teachers are vindictive and nasty and cruel. Yes. Some. But not all. I am not one of them.

Some kids hate being picked on and some kids would be mortified to be singled out for mild teasing from their teachers. Other kids absolutely love it and thrive on it and for them it's a really positive way of dealing with their behaviour. It's a teacher's job to discern the differences between students and to know which approach is best for which child. It's all about experience, knowledge and context. Sometimes they get it wrong, of course. But that doesn't negate the fact that different kids need different approaches to get the best out of them.

There is a real lack of understanding shown here on this post about the complexities of teaching and the vast range of personalities teachers are confronted with on a day-to-day basis. Your experience and your feelings are not the same as everyone else's experiences and everyone else's feelings. You can't have a one-size-fits-all approach in teaching. I'm not going to say I'll never mildly tease a student again, because for some kids I teach, it really is the best way to interact with them and I know they love it. They tell me they do. Their parents tell me they do. And for anyone who thinks 'well of course they say they like it but they're crying inside' - seriously, some kids do genuinely love being ribbed by their teacher. Not all, of course, but some really do. For those kids, it works wonders to build relationships. For others, of course, it really doesn't, and so with those children, I take an entirely different approach.

If you haven't taught a wide variety of children with challenging backgrounds then I genuinely think it's quite difficult for you to understand where I'm coming from.

@msbehavin I am not commenting on your arguments with others on here and it is good you are reflective but you do seem to be stickng your head in the sand and taking a rather deaf I know best approach. Your example about "don't do a max" yes seems harmless enough but actually it Bloody well isn't yes perhaps max is happy go lucky up for a laugh and you think he doesn't mind but You don't ever 100% know for sure so why not just take it on board and stop doing it if there is a slight chance even though you think it is impossible that this could advert effect someone why on earth would you defend it and carry on doing it. You must see you are so sure you are right you will not consider anyone elses experiences when alot of the time they were Max. Just don't do it you will be a better person and teacher and your conscience will be clear win win.

People's bad experiences of their own school days do not give them the right to accuse all teachers of being guilty of the same behaviour.

But they're not. They're basing it on the two deeply personal and unpleasant examples you have given here and still bullishly defend.

You can't have a one-size-fits-all approach in teaching

But you can have a blanket ban on a)attaching negative definitions to children's names and b)not being a twat.

I don’t believe you work in a PRU and have ‘jokes’ about children who arrive 15 minutes late every day.

But you see, @Stoppissingonmyheather - I do know Max, and you don't. I know Max loves that kind of joking around, and he responds really well to it.

Another child in the class might not. So I wouldn't do it with them. But with Max, it does. If I asked Max directly to not forget his lunch, he'd tell me to eff off, because he can't cope with being told what to do. Whereas if I make a joke about it, he'll listen. So that's the best approach for him.

For some of my students, joking and teasing is the ONLY way I can get them to behave. I think if you've not worked in the kind of environment I do, you'll really struggle to understand that.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand. I agree that joking and teasing are not suitable for every circumstance and they have to be used very carefully. But as someone who deals with challenging children on a daily basis, I think I am perhaps more qualified than some on here to say that in some circumstances, they are a really useful strategy that works to build positive relationships.

Working with children and managing their behaviour is really not as simple as you're trying to make it out to be. We have to work to the needs of the individuals in front of us. I know it sounds like I'm being defensive, but it's because I really do know that my methods work with the children I teach. The proof is in the pudding. They all turn up at school every day and they enjoy being in my classroom. Anyone who knows anything about PRUs knows what a battle it is to get the kids to come in on a regular basis. These kids are school refusers. They have a really complicated relationship with school for many reasons. But they always come in for my lessons. So I must be doing something right.

@daffodilsandprimroses

I don’t believe you work in a PRU and have ‘jokes’ about children who arrive 15 minutes late every day.

Why not?

For kids in a PRU, coming to school at all is an achievement. If we nitpick about lateness and cause them aggro the minute they walk in the door, they'll just walk straight out again.

No one is denying that humour can be helpful. But the examples you gave are not funny, go a step too far and could be seized on and weaponised by other children long after your seemingly harmless joshing. And you have no way of controlling whether that happens or not.

@daffodilsandprimroses I am inclined to agree. Those children who end up in a PRU will come with a whole heap of baggage, none of which will be helped by having a sarcastic teacher. Arriving late, poorly equipped to learn or without a packed lunch would be handled completely differently to how @msbehavin has described. There is no way I can imagine a scenario where a teacher at a PRU pops to "Pret" to buy a sandwich for a child on a school trip. I've taught some really challenging pupils in my time and honestly, a sarcastic teacher would be a great way of winding them up to bursting point.

@Riquesh

No one is denying that humour can be helpful. But the examples you gave are not funny, go a step too far and could be seized on and weaponised by other children long after your seemingly harmless joshing. And you have no way of controlling whether that happens or not.

But the children in question DO find it funny. Which is why I use that kind of humour with those children. Just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean the children in question don't. With the kind of children I work with, some of them genuinely thrive on that kind of humour. It's what keeps them coming to school. And trust me, they're not going to be using a forgotten lunch or lateness as a 'weapon' in the playground. None of them could care less!

For kids in a PRU, coming to school at all is an achievement. If we nitpick about lateness and cause them aggro the minute they walk in the door, they'll just walk straight out again

Exactly! So why the sarcastic comment you previously described?

[quote boomwhacker]**@daffodilsandprimroses* I am inclined to agree. Those children who end up in a PRU will come with a whole heap of baggage, none of which will be helped by having a sarcastic teacher. Arriving late, poorly equipped to learn or without a packed lunch would be handled completely differently to how @msbehavin* has described. There is no way I can imagine a scenario where a teacher at a PRU pops to "Pret" to buy a sandwich for a child on a school trip. I've taught some really challenging pupils in my time and honestly, a sarcastic teacher would be a great way of winding them up to bursting point. [/quote]
Really? You've not worked in a PRU, so how would you know how it would be handled?

Also, while out on a school trip, why would it be unbelievable that I would go to a sandwich shop to get a child a lunch? Do you think I'd just let them go hungry?

@boomwhacker

For kids in a PRU, coming to school at all is an achievement. If we nitpick about lateness and cause them aggro the minute they walk in the door, they'll just walk straight out again

Exactly! So why the sarcastic comment you previously described?

It's not sarcastic to say 'What a miracle! You're here!', said with a big smile and lots of joy that a kid has turned up, and they get lots of attention for it. In fact, it's a big positive. They made it to school, on time, and they got a positive welcome, which makes them more likely to come on time again. .

Also, while out on a school trip, why would it be unbelievable that I would go to a sandwich shop to get a child a lunch? Do you think I'd just let them go hungry?

No, I think you'd check before you went and made sure that everyone had their lunch before you set off- organising something in school for them first if necessary. I would imagine that you have a number of PP students who would be getting lunch provided anyway and would probably have the foresight to add a couple of spares.

@boomwhacker

Also, while out on a school trip, why would it be unbelievable that I would go to a sandwich shop to get a child a lunch? Do you think I'd just let them go hungry?

No, I think you'd check before you went and made sure that everyone had their lunch before you set off- organising something in school for them first if necessary. I would imagine that you have a number of PP students who would be getting lunch provided anyway and would probably have the foresight to add a couple of spares.

Sometimes they don't tell you they don't have their lunch, though, until you get there. In that case, there's no option but the sandwich shop.

For school trips we order in pre-packaged sandwiches from our supplier in advance for the FSM students. There aren't any spares for kids who aren't FSM. We can't afford to order in extra lunches just in case someone forgets theirs.

Not all PRU kids are eligible for FSM, by the way. Far from it, actually.

Oh God - the lack of full stops. Methods may have changed as it's frowned upon to use physical punishment to teach but the side serving of humiliation seems to have survived as a legitimate teaching tool because it's 'harmless banter'.

I'm from the north and at school in the 70s and 80s. The secondary 1st year 'naughty boys' were singled out to teach the whole class punctuation. Asked to come to the teachers desk and place their hand on the desk and read their work exactly how they had written it. Every time they drew breathe without a full stop they were whacked across the knuckles with a rule wielded by the teacher. Didn't teach them punctuation but put the fear of God into the rest of us.

The downside was that the 'naughty boys' bided their time, waited until they had grown and then beat the crap out of the teachers that had persecuted them years earlier. Usually in the last teaching term of what was 5th year when structural power ceased. Amazing how many staff were 'ill' in the last week. To quote Morrissey 'spineless bastards all'.

If I am being unkind I would just note that 'victims' of humiliation are now primary rather than secondary pupils and are much more likely to harm themselves than those who harm them. Both DS1 and DS2 suffered at primary school before diagnosis of ASD for behaviour that was symptomatic at the same time that staff tried to block diagnosis because they had not punished enough! And that teachers have redefined humiliation as banter because they still view this as legitimate means of behaviour modification. It's not.

There is no place for playful teasing in an unequal relationship even on a 1:1 basis. This is an important lesson to learn for the world of work. Unless you are teaching that your boss can tease you for taking time for a medical appointment but you absolutely cannot tease them about their 2 hour boozy lunches when they are excused as important client meetings; If this is Power and Teasing 101 - the Significance of Power in Structural Education and Work - don't bullshit and pretend it's all about creating harmony.

Teasing from a position of structural power in front of an audience that you also have structural power over is bullying - whatever you tell yourself. How do you not know this?

But the children in question DO find it funny.

But you shouldn't be teaching or reinforcing that. What is wrong with you?

@msbehavin my parents didn’t even know what was going on with me, nor did my closest friends. My teachers, no matter the size of the school, certainly didn’t. And those petty little jokes and actions taken in front of others just stopped me going to school. I lost out on the later of my education, really important a level time, because of his behaviour. Despite the accusations thrown at me on this thread, I haven’t called anyone a bully etc, but I wanted to point out that sometimes this sort of ‘banter’ can go a bit wrong. It’s great to hear you connect with your students and that you are close with them, but you can’t know everything going on in their personal lives or at home. People hide stuff and they hide it very well. That’s all people have been saying, is sharing their experiences of when banter can go a bit wrong. Anyway, you are clearly a dedicated professional and love the kids. All you can do is your job to the best of your ability.

and he responds really well to it.

And how would you know if he didn't?

With me, I'd smile & not give an outward indication of how I felt. But believe me, I'd be in bits inside.

So, how would you know?

On this thread, there have been a varied group of teachers, from those with more, and less experience than you, those that have taught in situations similar to you, as well as different. I have a teaching role but not at secondary school, so it's different, and yet I can concur with the points raised by others on your approach.

There's no group think here & 'ganging up'. The responses you've got are based on your own words not posters' projections.

You keep wildly over-stating what posters are saying. I am sure you do very well in your job. But this particular aspect is hugely concerning.

*latter

It's not sarcastic to say 'What a miracle! You're here!', said with a big smile and lots of joy that a kid has turned up, and they get lots of attention for it. In fact, it's a big positive. They made it to school, on time, and they got a positive welcome, which makes them more likely to come on time again.

Words are beginning to fail me. 😡

Saying 'What a miracle! You're here!' is NOT sarcastic? What the hell else is it?

The 'lots of joy' & love shite is so grating & patronising too. 🤢
.

Words fail me that some people can’t see that not everyone responds to others in the same way they do and that not everyone is offended by the same things they are.

Words fail me that people can’t understand that a teacher is able to discern how to interact positively with different groups of children in different ways according to their individual needs.

Keep on teacher bashing if that’s what you guys want to do. Maybe if you’re all so great at it you should sign up to do your PGCEs. Then we’ll see how 100% perfect you would be 100% of the time.

People aren't "teacher bashing" at all! No one has "bashed" me! They are appalled at your attitude to your very vulnerable pupils and your lack of ability to have any sense of reflection about it.

@msbehavin

Words fail me that some people can’t see that not everyone responds to others in the same way they do and that not everyone is offended by the same things they are.

Words fail me that people can’t understand that a teacher is able to discern how to interact positively with different groups of children in different ways according to their individual needs.

Keep on teacher bashing if that’s what you guys want to do. Maybe if you’re all so great at it you should sign up to do your PGCEs. Then we’ll see how 100% perfect you would be 100% of the time.

What was your route into teaching?

@msbehavin

Words fail me that some people can’t see that not everyone responds to others in the same way they do and that not everyone is offended by the same things they are.

Words fail me that people can’t understand that a teacher is able to discern how to interact positively with different groups of children in different ways according to their individual needs.

Keep on teacher bashing if that’s what you guys want to do. Maybe if you’re all so great at it you should sign up to do your PGCEs. Then we’ll see how 100% perfect you would be 100% of the time.

Who is teacher badging? Plenty of teachers on here also not agreeing with you.

Read your own words. Not everyone reacts the same way. Exactly. So for some students - some! - your 'joking' would be hell. You've no way of knowing. Even experienced, good teachers (which I'm sure you are) aren't equipped with magic powers to read the internal make-up of their students. No human being is!

I do get it. If my job & how I did it was being scrutinised here, I'm sure I would also be defensive & feeling picked upon. I'm not commenting on how you do the majority of your work, I'm sure it's great. I know you care deeply for your work from your posts.

But you have responded with so much hyperbole to posts here which have offered a relevant perspective. Everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. And anti-teacher, and bullying ... but we are not. Is there no room for some nuance in your thought process? You haven't yet answered what happens with the students who don't love your 'jokes' but don't show it?

You've also made no comment about your position of trust in the classroom - for all students.