What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

So overall, teachers and others alike, what would be the best way to deal with Charlie's situation, in order to address Charlie's feelings, and also be mindful of the teachers do you think?

Lots of people will have a different answer to this and in France, I don’t know how this would be dealt with, in all honesty. In the U.K., first and foremost, the school behaviour policy needs to be followed.

From the point of view of Charlie, something needs to be done to fix his negative feelings of the classroom that he has developed (I assume from what the OP has said) and this is mostly likely to be from a chat/apology if necessary with the teacher-probably with someone else also there.

From the point of view of the parent, they need to be assured that the school behaviour policy is being followed.

From the point of view of the teacher, they need to give their side of the story and reflect on if they have followed the behaviour policy and if relevant, be given the chance to reflect and change things going forward.

This is specifically regarding what the OP has stated. It should be treated sensitively so that neither the pupil or teacher is unfairly treated and both pupil and teacher should be supported in moving things forward.

@katakata

I'm a teacher (in secondary) and good natured, gentle teasing of students and their foibles is part of creating a warm classroom environment. I will rib kids for always being late, always forgetting things - along the lines of declaring it to be a miracle if a kid who's always late turns up on time, telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong, etc. It's all done in love, the kids know I don't mean anything by it, and they love having a giggle at themselves and each other.

However, I work in a very specialised environment for children from very specific backgrounds. Our work involves constant liaising with external child protection services. When I say I know exactly what's going on at home, I really do. Because the children are with us for specific reasons that we need to know about in order to look after them properly.

Just wanted to post Msbehavin's first and more recent descriptions of her class setting. It's so massively incongruous. Who would manage a class of (implicitly) at-risk, troubled high-need teens and make public jokes about individual students being late or poorly organised?

The comment about being utterly well-informed about every aspect of a student's life, an original claim of total omniscience (now amended to 90%), is worryingly deluded. And egocentric. Unless you are Dumbledore. Is Hogwarts is your unique teaching environment?

Why do you have such a problem with me?

Are you a qualified teacher? Do you have any idea of what it's like to teach in a challenging environment? Do you have any experience of anything I do in order to quantify your claims that I'm deluded or egocentric?

Please back off. Your nastiness is totally uncalled for and you're offering nothing of use to this thread. You can't claim I'm a bully, then post the kind of stuff you're posting. It's totally unnecessary. I don't understand the need for such vitriol towards a stranger.

"Just wanted to post Msbehavin's first and more recent descriptions of her class setting. It's so massively incongruous. Who would manage a class of (implicitly) at-risk, troubled high-need teens and make public jokes about individual students being late or poorly organised?"

I suppose it would be the experienced, well-regarded teacher who has honed her approach over the years and learned what gets the best results with that particular cohort.

@Spidey66

I hated cookery at school and wasn't particularly good at it. The teacher would often "gently tease" me about it. It wasn't gentle teasing to me. It would have me in floods of tears, and reinforced i was crap at cookery. I started being "sick" on Tuesday (cookery day) which affected my performance in other subjects I did on Tuesdays and raised a few eyebrows generally. That teacher completely ruined my self confidence and it took years to undo. It was 40 years ago, and I've never forgotten how small and useless I felt. It's only recently I've started to teach myself to cook as I always thought I was shit. As an adult I suffered low self esteem and if took CBT to work our where it came from.

I messed up my o levels/CSEs and only really flourished when I resat them in 6th form and no longer did cookery.

What is "gentle teasing" to a teacher can have long term implications for a child.

I hated needlework at school and wasn't particularly good at it. The teacher was not patient with me and frequently made me feel incredibly small and stupid. I used to say, "But I'm trying!" and she would reply, "Yes, you are!"

Oh ha ha ha. Fucking witch. I loathed her and her lessons with a passion and I still can't sew, over 30 years later.

(To make matters worse, she was a housemistress for 4th and 5th Year girls and couldn't take being teased herself, even "off duty".)

I think you (if you are Charlie's mum) need to make sure of the facts: the teacher could have been joking, or not said exactly what was reported, or Charlie could have said something that makes it more explainable if not excusable (e.g, have just announced that 'We won't miss you!' or 'We won't miss Jack, the bad boy who pushed me!', etc.)

However, if these incidents happened as described, then YANBU at all. Telling a child off is one thing; trying to get the class to gang up on him is another.

If the teacher is usually fine, it may have been due to stress associated with the lockdown. However, this might be an excuse for snapping at Charlie as an individual, but not for involving other children.

Regarding Charlie.

The first incident, regarding who will miss him during lockdown, was awful and Charlie's parents should certainly speak to the teacher for clarity, and to the Head if a reasonable explanation/apology is not forthcoming.

The second incident, about the instruction that was unnecessarily written down, is a bit greyer imo. If he wrote it down because he was buggering about and missed an instruction for the billionth time, then I'd struggle to sympathise.

I agree it’s been a bit of a pile on but I think it’s because msbehavin has been so insistent she has done nothing wrong, she knows everything about her students, anyone who objects is teacher bashing, and I agree that the ‘I am a secondary teacher’ and ‘I work in a highly specialised role where I know everything about my students’ are - well, it doesn’t add up.

@msbehavin

I’m sorry for anyone who had a negative experience of school with teachers who were unkind to them. When I say gentle teasing I mean gentle teasing. The kind a parent does with their child. It’s all part of relationship building and I only ever tease once I know the individual children and the class dynamic very well. Teasing can work really well to build relationships with difficult to reach children - it breaks down barriers and enables them to start to trust you. I know the children who would be mortified if I singled them out and so would naturally never make them feel uncomfortable by joking with them.

The hatred and distrust towards teachers on here is really quite upsetting to read sometimes. I work 70+ hours a week busting a gut for the kids I teach and I genuinely care about all of them as individuals. To be accused of being a bully for using a bit of gentle teasing to build relationships with teenagers - who trust me, aren’t angels when they’re at school - is really a bit much. Funnily enough we are well trained and most of us are pretty good at emotional intelligence. Most of us work with kids because we love them and want the best for them. Sometimes we get things wrong, but for the vast majority of teachers, our hearts are in the right place. Would it kill you to give us a break?! Honestly!

You said “I know the children who would be mortified if I singled them out and so would naturally never make them feel uncomfortable by joking with them”

Do they know you’d never do that? I had MASSIVE anxiety as a kid, and being in a classroom with a teacher who behaved like this would have made me ill. How do you make it clear to those kids that you won’t pick on them too?

@daffodilsandprimroses

I agree it’s been a bit of a pile on but I think it’s because msbehavin has been so insistent she has done nothing wrong, she knows everything about her students, anyone who objects is teacher bashing, and I agree that the ‘I am a secondary teacher’ and ‘I work in a highly specialised role where I know everything about my students’ are - well, it doesn’t add up.

I haven't been insistent I've done nothing wrong. I have acknowledged frequently that I'm sure I don't always get it right.

And I am a secondary teacher. In a specialised environment. It's called a PRU. A Pupil Referral Unit. It's a type of small school where children who are not able to mainstream education - for various reasons - are sent, and where they are taught in small classes by specially trained teachers who help them to positively engage with their education again. What doesn't add up?

I take your point daffodils but dislike the current fashion for haranguing anyone the majority disagree with into submission.

@DaphneduWarrior - great username!

Of course they know that. They know that because they know I know them and their preferences, and they know that I care about them, and so would never want to make them feel uncomfortable. They know they can trust me because I prove it to them in my actions towards them.

They know I will never pick on them, because it's my classroom policy that I don't do that. I make it clear that's not how I operate right from the first day of term, and that creates an environment where everyone feels safe to participate in the way that suits and is comfortable for them.

I don't know where this impression has come from that I've got a classroom of kids cowering in fear of being teased. It's so far from the reality I can't even express how sad I am that my words have been twisted to the point where I am being accused of essentially tormenting children.

Why do you have such a problem with me?

Because you come across as extremely self-satisfied and absolutely unused to anything approaching criticism, whilst proudly describing at-best problematic (and at worst damaging) teaching tactics. This is not a great combination.

Also because you are also a shameless gaslighter, making hyperbolic claims to have been bullied, called a child-hating monster, set upon by teacher-haters. You seem to have no capacity to countenance any disagreement. You have made a point of leaving this threat FOREVER at least four times, but keep coming back. Huge emotional overreactions to dissent plus absolute need to have the last word; again, not a great combination, especially in someone whose job involves authority.

This is a discussion, not a professional review. I'm basing my responses on what you're posting. If you don't want to engage, that's fine, but you don't need to keep insisting you are an amazing wonderful teacher who's being subject to bullying by fools who don't understand. You've basically hijacked this thread because you absolutely cannot walk away until there's no disagreement left.

@katakata

Why do you have such a problem with me?

Because you come across as extremely self-satisfied and absolutely unused to anything approaching criticism, whilst proudly describing at-best problematic (and at worst damaging) teaching tactics. This is not a great combination.

Also because you are also a shameless gaslighter, making hyperbolic claims to have been bullied, called a child-hating monster, set upon by teacher-haters. You seem to have no capacity to countenance any disagreement. You have made a point of leaving this threat FOREVER at least four times, but keep coming back. Huge emotional overreactions to dissent plus absolute need to have the last word; again, not a great combination, especially in someone whose job involves authority.

This is a discussion, not a professional review. I'm basing my responses on what you're posting. If you don't want to engage, that's fine, but you don't need to keep insisting you are an amazing wonderful teacher who's being subject to bullying by fools who don't understand. You've basically hijacked this thread because you absolutely cannot walk away until there's no disagreement left.

Gosh, you have issues.

"You've basically hijacked this thread because you absolutely cannot walk away until there's no disagreement left."

Don't you think the posters still banging on after misbehavin has defended and explained her actions many times, might be even more responsible for hijacking the thread?

It is hard to walk away when you know you have been misunderstood. An uncaring teacher wouldn't give a shit what you thought about her btw.

I don't know where this impression has come from that I've got a classroom of kids cowering in fear of being teased.

MsBehavin I've RTFT, and your posts have got worse & worse as you've tried to explain.

I did start out thinking that you were a good compassionate teacher who had used a poor choice of words, and was a bit misguided.

I have seen very few posts attacking you directly, being vitriolic or calling you a bully. Instead, the posts responding to you have been thoughtful, and well-written. But you haven't been able to respond really to their points & have fallen back on your 10 years teaching experience & how much the kids love you.

Many do, I'm sure. I'm sure you are good at your job. But my heart breaks for the minority who for whatever reason are vulnerable to your words.

You insist that you know to a degree of 90% anyway, which child 'can' be teased, as you know their background. Many posters have explained to you why that can't be true.

Even if it were, you can't see inside the head of a child. You can't know their most private thoughts & how they will take your comment.

I would have had no troubled background at all but the kind of 'joke' about forgetting my lunch or anything similar would have devastated me. I would have seen it as a massive criticism & I had no self-confidence so such comments shattered me.

Finally, your sense of equation with your students is utterly nuts. You are NOT their equal, especially in the setting you describe. You talk about them joking with you. But YOU are the figure of authority, who is there to make them feel safe. They need absolute certainty & trust in you. It isn't the same at all if they make jokes to you.

When I say gentle teasing I mean gentle teasing. The kind a parent does with their child.

You are not their parent. I never tease my child about their faults in front of their peer group.

How about building a relationship with them by pointing out their positives?

I had teachers like you. The kids they “gently teased” hated them and rightly so.

Gosh, you have issues.

I couldn't disagree more.

I think @katakata, along with @boomwhacker & @year5teacher have written incredibly cogent & clear-sighted posts. They haven't been attacks.

Kata's has been direct, but I have to agree.

I think I'm nearly more frustrated by your 'I'm going to reflect posts' than your other ones - as you are doing nothing of the kind.

@katakata

I used to teach teens and young adults, and msbehavin's post is so familiar. There's a teacher like that in every school. They congratulate themselves on being hilarious, irreverent, charismatic and having the most fun class. In reality, it's hugely one-sided and the students know that; any real piss-taking towards the teacher and they'll icily pull rank. Quiet students get even quieter. Everyone gets better at forcing a smile, because ha ha it's just a bit of banter, oh look at that frown, he didn't like that, did he? Everyone be kind to X today, he's come over all sensitive ha ha!

It's by no means the worst thing a teacher can do, but it's so self-serving and lazy. And the students aren't stupid: most of them can see what's really a passive aggressive complaint (oh, look everyone, X has forgotten his book again, I'm really cool so I'm not going to tell him off, but I will just mention it a few dozen times ha ha!), and when an insecure teacher just wants to feel popular and get laughs.

But most teachers don't know their students as well as they'd like to imagine, and this kind of hilarious ribbing/running joke/banter can be wretched for someone who's having a rough time. I get that it's not done in malice, but the usual defence (it's just a bit of fun! kids need to be resilient! snowflakes etc etc) just shows how tone-deaf some people are, and desperate to project a certain persona even if it does screw some students over.

The OP's example sounds more like a really pissed off teacher who's being openly hostile, though.

This is SUCH a good post. 🙌

I find it annoying that teachers are posting that the rest of us know nothing about classroom settings, when we have all been in classrooms for at least ten years of our lives and we all recognise the teacher who controls their students by making the rest of the class laugh at them, albeit uncomfortably.

I also have experience of good teachers who can indulge in a bit of gentle teasing and genuinely care about all the students but @msbehavin chose to post in defence of the obviously very unpleasant behaviour in OP's post.

@BensonStabler

Your post was incredibly moving. I'm so sorry for what you experienced. I hope life is better now 💐

Here we go again. Looks like op will have to look elsewhere for her specific issue.

Not really - the issue has been discussed extensively.

Thanks to all who replied to my last question, and I'm pretty much in agreement. A sensitively handled opportunity to discuss things with the teacher might resolve things and provide reassurance for Charlie going forward.

I wouldn't want to go straight for the jugular via official sources if, as suggested, the teacher has behaved out of character on an isolated occasion.

Given the circumstances being unusually stressful ie going into lockdown, she might be unaware of the impact she has had, and hopefully would want to go forward with a clean slate so that Charlie isn't further impacted negatively, especially when remote learning will have a different atmosphere.

It has been very enlightening to read posts on all sides, and one thing I will take from this thread is that it's sometimes difficult to see how much "little things" in a teaching setting can make person feel and impact their self-esteem and maybe even life choices in the future. It's the same for parents, and while nurturing a certain amount of resilience (for want of a better word) is a good thing, it shouldn't be done in a cack handed and less than nuanced manner.

We're all responsible for recognising the errors made in child rearing across the board and helping weed out the negative, so parents and teachers have to be somewhat on board. It may not be easy, but the rewards to future generations will hopefully be very worthwhile.