What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

@boomwhacker I don’t need to reflect on comments made by people who don’t know my students, me or what goes on in my school or my classroom. I would happily reflect on my approach if my manager or colleagues ever raised any concerns, or my parents or students. But they never have. Random strangers without teaching qualifications are entitled to their opinions but without the experience of managing a classroom, they can’t always appreciate the complexities of the role and are reliant on their own emotive and subjective experiences. This leads to generalisations that fail to acknowledge the reality that not all children are the same.

Some of the comments on here, about dealing with quieter and more sensitive students, are really useful to consider and it’s always good to be reminded of that. But in my specific classroom environment, the type of mild teasing I’ve referred to throughout works and builds relationships with specific children in a positive way. Teachers should always have a wide range of strategies up their sleeves and this is one that I find works for certain students. If others disagree, fine. But that doesn’t make me ‘appalling’.

Some of the comments on here, about dealing with quieter and more sensitive students, are really useful to consider

The students don't always have to be 'quieter & more sensitive though'.

Some students who would be affected by your behaviour will present as confident, extrovert and able to 'take' your 'joke'.

Inside, it might be different.

And as you can't see inside their head & experience their feelings you just won't know.

Don't you think the posters still banging on after misbehavin has defended and explained her actions many times, might be even more responsible for hijacking the thread?

Misbehavin dropped in on the first page with a description of her teaching technique that drew a huge response, predominantly negative, from teachers, parents, and former students.

I appreciate she would want to come back and explain/defend herself, but (as has been pointed out), every explanation actually made it seem worse. It's 14 pages on and she's still posting the same thing. She is a wonderful lovely teacher who understands every pupil. Everyone who disagrees is a) vindictive, b) a non-teacher who doesn't get it and probably hates all teachers, c) a teacher, but the wrong sort who also doesn't get it.

It has been interesting reading other people's take on humour in class, though. I don't think the classroom needs to be a crashingly dull place of robo-learning, but it's increasingly clear that anything directed at individuals may be remembered for a long time by the pupil, even if they smile along, and it's not necessarily the harmless bonding ritual some teachers believe it to be.

Maybe it's similar to giving appearance-related compliments to students? You think you're being nice, building a rapport, but actually you're just making them self-conscious and opening them up to ridicule. And there's always the risk you'll get a bit too blasé and say something that could be construed as inappropriate. Or just be the kind of twat who says 'whaaaat, it was just a COMPLIMENT, nobody's ever complained before' when you get feedback that your students don't actually like you commenting that they've got a great tan/have clearly been to the gym/whatever creepy remark.

Almost no teacher would comment on physical appearance these days, even in the most positive way, even if they were sure it would give certain students a real boost to be singled out (and that they were infallibly aware of which students wouldn't enjoy it). It's just not something you do. I hope banter/ribbing/'gentle' teasing (knowing the students can't tell you to fuck off) goes the same way.

Random strangers without teaching qualifications are entitled to their opinions but without the experience of managing a classroom, they can’t always appreciate the complexities of the role and are reliant on their own emotive and subjective experiences. This leads to generalisations that fail to acknowledge the reality that not all children are the same

I am indeed a random stranger and I have never seen you teach but I am a fully qualified and very experienced teacher who is also a member of SLT in my school. I know what good teaching looks like and I know the impact of negative teaching on students. I know that those who you teach will have suffered really challenging school experiences. It will without doubt be an achievement for them to arrive in your classroom with anything close to what they need (equipment and/or mindset) to achieve anything. The very last thing that any of those pupils need is sarcastic remarks and put downs.

I would be interested to know what your colleagues do think actually (I'm assuming you have TAs with you). I would also be interested to know whether you speak to your pupils in that way in front of your SLT. I suspect you will say yes but I very much doubt it.
Children are not all the same, you are correct, and that is why you would be wise to avoid making them potentially feel worse about themselves. These are, after all, children who for whatever reason have not succeeded in mainstream education and so undoubtedly have fairly negative views of school, teachers and themselves.

But this is what I’ve been saying throughout. I only use joking with very specific students for whom it’s a tried and tested strategy that works for them. If any student reacted negatively to a joke I would never do it with them again. My class know they can trust me because they know I treat them as individuals. I respect their individual personalities and boundaries. If I ever do make a joke that goes the wrong way, I apologise unreservedly to the student and the class, letting them know I got it wrong and I won’t do it again. I’m always sure to show respect goes both ways.

I have felt very attacked on here because I just feel people are making assumptions that I pick on kids. Posting things like ‘I had a teacher like you...’ and then going on to post horrible experiences of bullying that I would never do to a child and are nothing like what I’ve described. So yes perhaps I have been overly defensive, but I have felt very piled on in a way that has gone totally beyond justification from what I’ve explained about the very specific circumstances in which I use mild teasing.

I don’t really know what else to say. I just think that if you were in my classroom and saw how I use humour you’d understand in a way that seems to be impossible to communicate on here.

Thanks for being kind. I get that it’s hard to understand when you’re not in a classroom with me. It’s not easy to put into words how trust is built and relationships are managed. But I can assure you I’m not leaving children traumatised. I know them well enough to know how they would respond and the kids I teach really don’t hide their emotions. If I’d upset them, I would know! When I say I know these kids I know it sounds like I’m being naive but when you’ve seen kids every day for seven years you do get to know them in a way it’s perhaps difficult to imagine if you’ve not been in that position. No I’ll never know the inner workings of their minds but I do genuinely know them well enough to know when to tease and when not to.

I have felt very attacked on here because I just feel people are making assumptions that I pick on kids

Again, they are basing it on your own examples, which are just horrible. You shouldn't be encouraging your children to laugh at other children like that.

Just read that you work in a PRU. Why am I not surprised?

Ime PRUs tend to attract teachers who adhere to outdated methods of teaching, have fragile egos and think they are all knowing saints.

They should be nowhere near children at risk of exclusion and those vulnerable that should be in properly specialist schools that can meet their needs.

The very fact that you say you have taught children for years is problematic. PRUs are meant to be temporary with the aim of reintegration into m/s.

Are you saying that vulnerable children are permanently placed in a PRU with teachers like you? Children with ASD and severe anxiety awaiting tribunal/placement?

If any student reacted negatively to a joke I would never do it with them again.

This is, I think, the third time I've asked you a version of this question: what would do if they didn't react negatively? If they seemed ok?

As I've pointed out, it might be adversely affecting them, but you won't know this. Why would you take that risk?

Also, you'd never do it again? But you did it once? Why even put them through a negative experience once?

I really doubt there are in truth many students who actively enjoy being part of your 'joke'.

I do think humour in a teaching environment is important. In my own role I use it, but against myself usually, or in general ways, that don't relate to any individual.

I think Kata's points about commenting on physical attributes, even positively, are really interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. Lots of interesting perspectives on this thread.

The very fact that you say you have taught children for years is problematic. PRUs are meant to be temporary with the aim of reintegration into m/s.

That's interesting too. I don't know anything about this area, I admit. I know the OP says she has up to 7 years experience of teaching most of her students. This does seem strange.

Why is that the case OP? (That's a genuine question, not being snippy, from someone who doesn't work in this sector at all).

Out of interest @msbehavin, do the sarcastic comments have a positive impact? For example, do children who are repeatedly late start arriving on time because of your comments? Does behaviour measurably improve in those children who receive your humorous input? Did 'Max' forevermore remember his packed lunch and all other equipment and become a reformed character? I very much doubt it. Did the more timid kids get a little quieter in order to avoid the "humour"? I suspect so.
By the way, I'm surprised at the longevity of your relationship with the same group of kids in a PRU? Surely they haven't all been with you consistently for all that time? Surely they didn't all arrive in year 7 and continue through to year 11? Isn't the idea of a successful PRU to reintegrate pupils back into mainstream wherever possible?

That's what I thought too. And if the places are fixed for so many years, there can be no new places for pupils who need them.

"Ime PRUs tend to attract teachers who adhere to outdated methods of teaching, have fragile egos and think they are all knowing saints."

You can disagree with a poster without making sweeping, offensive statements that accuse educationalists working hard in one entire sector based on your own anecdotal - and presumably quite limited - experience.

but @msbehavin chose to post in defence of the obviously very unpleasant behaviour in OP's post

Yes, this is one of the outstanding things that concerns me. Whilst other posters are appalled at how Charlie was treated, msbehavin came in with a defence and explanation which still involved appalling treatment of Charlie regardless of how much 'affection' the teacher felt. Even tho MB said she wouldn't do it, she still seemed to be defending this way of treating a child. That in particular gives the impression of someone who just doesn't get what the negative impacts of these comments can be.

I’m off now. The vile comments about PRU teachers are the nail in the coffin. I don’t need to justify myself to any of you. I’ve tried to help you understand how different approaches can work for different kids but the mumsnet consensus seems to be that I’m an appalling teacher and obviously nothing I can say will change that. Me and my ‘fragile ego’ are off to enjoy our well deserved holiday. Thanks again @rawlikesushi for your support.

the mumsnet consensus seems to be that I’m an appalling teacher and obviously nothing I can say will change that

Every single time you've posted this over-dramatic crap, posters, including me, have replied to reiterate that's not what they think.

You you continue to ignore points & questions about your apparently successful approach of 'joking' with kids, and how you can know this.

Your immature approach where you invent stuff that posters have not said while ignoring valid points is really worrying in your role.

Regarding PRUs, one poster said something questionable. Other posters asked a relevant question which you ignored.

I'm not one to do this normally but I have noted a comment by @msbehavin on another thread which expresses how she "doesn't have enough fingers" to count the amount of times she's had parents email her to complain about things that she has said to children. She argues on that thread that such comments had been taken out of context but the assertion that no one has ever been upset by her words is seemingly not quite the full story.

I'm wondering whether Charlie has misinterpreted the teacher's behaviour and has read what was meant to be kindness as being nasty. Some kids really don't understand sarcasm

This also from Msbehavin's first post. Here she seems to equate sarcasm with kindness. But thinks some children unfortunately don't understand this. The reality is those children who don't respond well to sarcasm are those who have understood it. They understand it is a form of contempt. Gottman who runs an institute dedicated to researching what makes marriages work identifies it as a destructive force in relationships precisely because it is a form of contempt.

@EarringsandLipstick I have explained how I know, a million times, that kids don’t take offence at my jokes. The kids I teach aren’t the type to sit silently and suffer. Just like you know what your own children do and don’t like and will and won’t respond to specific behaviour patterns or triggers, I know that about the kids I teach. It’s called having a relationship with them. I don’t understand why this is difficult to understand.

The PRU I teach in is very specific and we do have many long term students for specific reasons. Any more information on this would be outing and I don’t feel that I am obliged to respond to people questioning the effectiveness of my teaching because children stay at the PRU long term. Some children can’t be reintegrated to mainstream unfortunately. That’s not an individual class teacher’s fault.

I haven’t ignored anything and I’m not immature. I’m just frustrated that so many people can’t seem to understand that a teacher is perfectly capable of getting to know children well enough to be able to joke around with them in a way that makes them feel safe and comfortable. And that a teacher is perfectly capable of using their professional judgement to manage behaviour in this way and for it to lead to positive outcomes. Just because some people have experienced joking in a negative way when they were at school, it doesn’t mean that joking doesn’t work for anyone, full stop. That’s a very narrow minded way of looking at the world.

Anyway, enough now. Happy Easter.

The kids I teach aren’t the type to sit silently and suffer.

But as you keep saying, they are individuals. They aren't a type: 'the kids I teach'.

Rather than a homogenous group, they are all personality types, and will process your 'jokes' and targeted comments differently.

How can you honestly not see this?

@jerometheturnipking

If this happened exactly as you’ve relayed it, that is categorically not ok and unprofessional in the extreme. It doesn’t matter if Charlie is the most difficult child in the world, their teacher should be treating them with respect and building positive relationships.

This

@boomwhacker

I'm not one to do this normally but I have noted a comment by *@msbehavin* on another thread which expresses how she "doesn't have enough fingers" to count the amount of times she's had parents email her to complain about things that she has said to children. She argues on that thread that such comments had been taken out of context but the assertion that no one has ever been upset by her words is seemingly not quite the full story.

Why am I not surprised by this?

Just because some people have experienced joking in a negative way when they were at school, it doesn’t mean that joking doesn’t work for anyone, full stop. That’s a very narrow minded way of looking at the world

But the inverse is also true. Just because it might work (though I'm dubious about this) with some students, doesn't mean it will work for others.

You say you know which - but how? Whatever relationship you have with them, you can't see inside their heads & know their emotional state.

Even if you do know you've misstepped, it means on at least one occasion you unfairly upset a child. That's not ok.

What's to be gained by using individualised jokes in a public fashion as some questionable way to discipline / manage your classroom? There are other ways? Other teachers here have suggested this?

There is an immature to your posts, accompanied by a real arrogance, sadly - you know best, and that's it.

• immaturity

@boomwhacker

I'm not one to do this normally but I have noted a comment by *@msbehavin* on another thread which expresses how she "doesn't have enough fingers" to count the amount of times she's had parents email her to complain about things that she has said to children. She argues on that thread that such comments had been taken out of context but the assertion that no one has ever been upset by her words is seemingly not quite the full story.

Great detective work. That was in a previous school that I left because of the highly competitive parents who complained incessantly about grades. ‘You told my daughter that she was going to get a B’ blah blah blah. When that’s not what I said. ‘At the moment you’re working at a B’ is what I did say. Minor stuff like this is what I was referring to. In that school environment I managed behaviour completely differently. And when I left I had to order a taxi to carry all the presents from the kids, who lined up in the corridor outside my classroom to say goodbye on my last day and were begging me not to leave. Not a brag, just the truth. I always build great relationships with my students wherever I go and I adapt how I approach my relationship with them depending on the context of the school environment and cohort. Like any good teacher would.

You’ve said previously that you’re an SLT member. I hope you’re not this unpleasant to your staff.

And when I left I had to order a taxi to carry all the presents from the kids, who lined up in the corridor outside my classroom to say goodbye on my last day and were begging me not to leave.

🙄🙄🙄

FGS