What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

@msbehavin No offence, but that is a little bit patronising! I don’t think anything I said is wrong because you have more experience than me. You said that you are literally 100% certain that you know everything that goes on at home, which is why I pointed out that that is never true. You obviously work in a different environment to me, I don’t dispute that. You clearly do feel that you have a total insight into what goes on, and you probably do, but even social workers and the like still don’t know everything.

You say that “of course we never know 100%”, and then say you definitely know exactly what’s going on. It can’t be both.

Again, I really don’t mean any disrespect, and I am sure that your children love you and feel supported by you. I’m not really talking about your specific situation, and I don’t doubt your commitment or dedication to your job. It’s ok to not know everything that’s going on. No one does.

@year5teacher don't feel undermined. I agree with all that you have said and I've been teaching for 21 years.

@boomwhacker

It seems I have considerably more experience than you *@msbehavin* and with that, I would suggest that children with complex backgrounds are even more in need of positive role modelling from their teachers and even less able to cope with veiled sarcasm. Your recent posts regarding the type of students you work with have concerned me even more.

Please don't be concerned. You don't need to be. You don't know the children and you don't know me.

They get plenty of positive role modelling. All the time. However, the occasional joke to check poor behaviour is often the best way to engage with the children, as direct confrontation with children who have behavioural issues simply doesn't work. If I told a child in my school not to do something, I'd get a barrage of swear words back and possibly be shoved against the wall. However, a gentle joke to get them back onside works wonders and is far more effective than any other behaviour management techniques I've tried in keeping the children - and me - safe.

Have you ever worked in a PRU? If you haven't, you really can't judge.

@LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour

If it's totally out of character, could the teacher possibly be having some sort of breakdown?

Not an excuse of course but in France, where this incident took place, there has been a lot of stress and worry over the huge rise in Covid cases and schools being kept open that led up to this third lockdown and staff were threatening to strike at the end of March

www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210325-french-teachers-threaten-strike-action-over-lack-of-protection-from-covid

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shut-schools-now-insists-paris-mp-as-covid-grips-france-v83jdwnhr

This is not the OP’s school as it is a secondary equivalent but will have worried many staff in France I am sure:

www.france24.com/en/france/20210331-in-paris-suburbs-blighted-by-covid-schools-are-kept-open-at-all-cost-%E2%80%93-even-without-teachers

And as such, some are launching legal action against the government for putting their health at risk.

www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210331-french-teachers-accuse-minister-of-endangering-lives-as-covid-cripples-schools-court-blanquer

The amount of pressure this puts a person under is immense and the OP does state this is out of character for the teacher.
In how to proceed going forward, kindness on every side (particularly on Charlie of course) including the teacher should be acknowledged.

@boomwhacker thank you!

[quote year5teacher]@msbehavin No offence, but that is a little bit patronising! I don’t think anything I said is wrong because you have more experience than me. You said that you are literally 100% certain that you know everything that goes on at home, which is why I pointed out that that is never true. You obviously work in a different environment to me, I don’t dispute that. You clearly do feel that you have a total insight into what goes on, and you probably do, but even social workers and the like still don’t know everything.

You say that “of course we never know 100%”, and then say you definitely know exactly what’s going on. It can’t be both.

Again, I really don’t mean any disrespect, and I am sure that your children love you and feel supported by you. I’m not really talking about your specific situation, and I don’t doubt your commitment or dedication to your job. It’s ok to not know everything that’s going on. No one does.[/quote]
I didn't mean to be patronising. But at the same time, I don't appreciate being lectured by someone who has barely started in the career I've been doing for ten years. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across that way, but that's how I read it.

Look, I know I'll never know 100%. But I know a good 90%. Which is enough to make the right judgement calls as to who can take a joke and who can't.

Introvertedbuthappy
Have you read the book Quiet by Susan Cain? It looks at introversion in a world of loud people. It's not school specific, but it's interesting.

I think schools can easily become focused on the loud children and the extroverts. How many times do quieter children feel they get overlooked? How many times do parents of quieter children go to parents' evening and get told "we'd like you to put your hand up more", when if the teacher knew the child they'd know to ask them when they're circulating the room and then select the quieter child to answer a question that they will succeed on? Why is the focus shifted onto the child to change when surely the teacher knows the quieter child won't put their hand up so they could use a range of strategies to ensure the quieter child is just as part of the lesson as the louder children? Sometimes I feel the onus is on children to change to suit the teacher instead of the teacher adapting to suit the children.

It's not just the "quieter" kids that struggle with this either. I was a loud bolshy kid with occasional behaviour problems, but that doesn't mean that an authority figure highlighting my flaws for the sake of humour in front of the class was any less painful. Not that I'd have shown it. No home issues, either.

So overall, teachers and others alike, what would be the best way to deal with Charlie's situation, in order to address Charlie's feelings, and also be mindful of the teachers do you think?

@LolaSmiles I'll order a copy, thanks for the recommendation. I've been teaching 14 years and it's something I've definitely noticed. It takes more of an effort to get to know some children, but in my experience it's always extremely valuable and it saddens me when I tell colleagues who currently teach them who say "oh, I didn't know that about them" and I always think "but did you even bother to find out?"

Louder children naturally get more attention (my youngest is one!) but the key is trying to give all children opportunities to shine, in whatever way they feel most comfortable.

I've worked in all sorts of schools- some in very deprived areas with huge challenges (and without the benefit of very small classes). This is why I have a very pragmatic approach to safeguarding.
I am not suggesting yelling at children for being late or forgetting their lunch- not for a moment and totally agree that aggression towards aggressive children would be completely counter-productive. Sarcastic comments are not the only other option however and with challenging behaviour could actually produce real concerns. It is possible to address concerns about behaviour in other ways as I am sure you are aware (and apparently employ 99% of the time). Honestly, having taught tough kids myself, I am amazed that your sarcasm hasn't yet produced a "fuck off" response.

I suppose it is fair to say that, just like people in every walk of life, there are a vast range of teachers and teaching styles.

Your child will get along with some, and not others.

The reason your child dislikes a teacher may be the very reason another child loves him.

The qualities your child craves in a teacher may not be what another child is looking for at all.

If you have a teacher who cares, who seeks to do right by their students even if they get it wrong sometimes, who would never intentionally cause harm or distress or upset, then you have got a winner imo and save your complaints for those teachers who do none of the above.

@LolaSmiles

Introvertedbuthappy Have you read the book Quiet by Susan Cain? It looks at introversion in a world of loud people. It's not school specific, but it's interesting.

I think schools can easily become focused on the loud children and the extroverts. How many times do quieter children feel they get overlooked? How many times do parents of quieter children go to parents' evening and get told "we'd like you to put your hand up more", when if the teacher knew the child they'd know to ask them when they're circulating the room and then select the quieter child to answer a question that they will succeed on? Why is the focus shifted onto the child to change when surely the teacher knows the quieter child won't put their hand up so they could use a range of strategies to ensure the quieter child is just as part of the lesson as the louder children? Sometimes I feel the onus is on children to change to suit the teacher instead of the teacher adapting to suit the children.

I couldn't agree more. At parents' evening, with the quiet children, I always make a point of saying how important it is to be a listener, and for them not to feel they have to speak all the time in order to be appreciated. Just because you're not saying anything, it doesn't mean you're not participating. The quiet children, when they do contribute in a way that they feel comfortable doing, often contribute the most to class discussion, because they take far more in than others who are focused on being heard.

You didn't at any point lecture, year5teacher - and I've been teaching for 27 years. Not that I approve of that kind of Teacher Top Trumps, it's totally ridiculous.

At parents' evening, with the quiet children, I always make a point of saying how important it is to be a listener

Why do you wait until parents' evening to say that?

@msbehavin I didn’t lecture you. If you are closed off to taking any type of “challenge” from people you clearly consider to be beneath you, then you will shut yourself off from possible learning.

I’ve worked in schools for over five years now, but I have still learned from TAs who have just started. Yes, of course I’ve learned more from experienced teachers, but equally they have learned from NQTs who bring new ideas. I wasn’t talking about your ability to judge who can take a joke, anyway.

If I was Charlie's mum I would ask for a meeting (virtually if this was the only option) and explain what Charlie had told me and how Charlie had felt as a result of this. I would then see how the teacher responded. If the teacher seemed apologetic I would hope that he/she had learnt from the experience and moved on, if not I would escalate it.

@rawlikesushi

I suppose it is fair to say that, just like people in every walk of life, there are a vast range of teachers and teaching styles.

Your child will get along with some, and not others.

The reason your child dislikes a teacher may be the very reason another child loves him.

The qualities your child craves in a teacher may not be what another child is looking for at all.

If you have a teacher who cares, who seeks to do right by their students even if they get it wrong sometimes, who would never intentionally cause harm or distress or upset, then you have got a winner imo and save your complaints for those teachers who do none of the above.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. So lovely to read a reasonable and supportive post.

I'd need to actually know what happened. OP is not clear. OP hasn't clarified, despite coming back to the thread.

If the teacher made an ill-judged or badly-worded comment, then they need to reflect and have a restorative conversation with Charlie. It sounds like this may have happened after the anger comment, but OP is unclear.
If Charlie felt children were laughing at him when they weren't, he needs support with understanding social situations. the teacher would also need to reflect and reconsider their approach with Charlie.
If the teacher was "encouraging the whole class to mock Charlie," then OP would have been negligent not to whistle blow.

So no solution, because it is not clear.

MistressoftheDarkSide
If the OP is a TA then my advice would differ depending on what her relationship is like with the class teacher.

I can recall a situation where I thought I'd handled a situation well (SEN issue and I responded in line with the instructions on the child's file), but it all blew up. It blew up because I missed another trigger in the room, and something had happened at lunch that I wasn't aware of. I was grateful that my TA caught me later to talk about it. It would have been a kick in the teeth if she'd gone to my head of department or the SENCo because we had the relationship where we could professionally challenge each other in a friendly way.

If this is out of character for the teacher and they're normally ok, then I'd suggest the OP arranges to talk to the teacher.

I hated cookery at school and wasn't particularly good at it. The teacher would often "gently tease" me about it. It wasn't gentle teasing to me. It would have me in floods of tears, and reinforced i was crap at cookery. I started being "sick" on Tuesday (cookery day) which affected my performance in other subjects I did on Tuesdays and raised a few eyebrows generally. That teacher completely ruined my self confidence and it took years to undo. It was 40 years ago, and I've never forgotten how small and useless I felt. It's only recently I've started to teach myself to cook as I always thought I was shit. As an adult I suffered low self esteem and if took CBT to work our where it came from.

I messed up my o levels/CSEs and only really flourished when I resat them in 6th form and no longer did cookery.

What is "gentle teasing" to a teacher can have long term implications for a child.

@boomwhacker

At parents' evening, with the quiet children, I always make a point of saying how important it is to be a listener

Why do you wait until parents' evening to say that?

Because that's often when a parent will raise the issue? 'I've been hearing from all the teachers that Sophie is really quiet, do you see this as a problem too?'

I do say it frequently in class too, to encourage the kids and remind them that we're all different and we all learn and contribute in different but equally valid ways. I was just talking in the context of parents' evening in my post, as the poster I was replying to was talking about parents' evenings.

I feel like you've really got it in for me, @boomwhacker! Everything I say you just want to pick apart and make me out to be a terrible teacher. I give up!

I'm a teacher (in secondary) and good natured, gentle teasing of students and their foibles is part of creating a warm classroom environment. I will rib kids for always being late, always forgetting things - along the lines of declaring it to be a miracle if a kid who's always late turns up on time, telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong, etc. It's all done in love, the kids know I don't mean anything by it, and they love having a giggle at themselves and each other.

However, I work in a very specialised environment for children from very specific backgrounds. Our work involves constant liaising with external child protection services. When I say I know exactly what's going on at home, I really do. Because the children are with us for specific reasons that we need to know about in order to look after them properly.

Just wanted to post Msbehavin's first and more recent descriptions of her class setting. It's so massively incongruous. Who would manage a class of (implicitly) at-risk, troubled high-need teens and make public jokes about individual students being late or poorly organised?

The comment about being utterly well-informed about every aspect of a student's life, an original claim of total omniscience (now amended to 90%), is worryingly deluded. And egocentric. Unless you are Dumbledore. Is Hogwarts is your unique teaching environment?

[quote year5teacher]@msbehavin I didn’t lecture you. If you are closed off to taking any type of “challenge” from people you clearly consider to be beneath you, then you will shut yourself off from possible learning.

I’ve worked in schools for over five years now, but I have still learned from TAs who have just started. Yes, of course I’ve learned more from experienced teachers, but equally they have learned from NQTs who bring new ideas. I wasn’t talking about your ability to judge who can take a joke, anyway.[/quote]
I am not closed off to being challenged. I am happy to learn from people at all stages of their experience. In fact, I love learning from new teachers, who often have plenty of fresh ideas. It's lovely to have their perspective.

However, when it comes to safeguarding, I have a lot of expertise borne out of my experience in very challenging school environments. More expertise than most, and definitely more than an NQT, simply because you haven't been teaching as long as me. This is what I objected to.

I didn't mean to cause offence. I apologise if I did.

@msbehavin and what I objected to was you saying that you can 100% know with certainty that you are sure what is going on at home. If you don’t actually believe that, then we are clearly in agreement.