What is this behaviour by teacher?

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Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

I entirely agree with you re: seeing this as a concern if it were a pattern of behaviour connected with what I knew to be a chaotic home environment

You are dependent then on what you know. I'll say again, you can't and won't ever know the full circumstances of a child's home situation. To suggest you do seriously risks safeguarding failures.

Honestly, this has become an entirely pointless conversation, because there are too many personal experiences that are colouring people's views of what I, and other teachers who do understand what I'm talking about, are saying, and not enough experience of actually teaching children OF SECONDARY AGE to understand the dynamics of secondary classrooms and the role of humour as both a relationship building and behaviour management strategy.

I've been a secondary school teacher for over 30 years. I completely understand "the role of humour as both a relationship building and behaviour management strategy". But that is not how you are using it (from your description).

I went to a Catholic primary in the late 60's. All of the teachers were lovely except one man.
Humiliation was his trademark.
50 years later I sincerely hope this respected pillar of the Catholic community has got his just desserts either in life or death. 9 year old me hated him and 60 year old me still does. And so do my siblings.
It's not banter when you single a child out in a negative way, it's a cruel and unnecessary abuse of power.

I'm a teacher and I don't perceive this to be a teacher bashing thread at all. I've been appalled by certain comments from teachers on this thread about what they deem to be acceptable. Making someone the butt of a joke is never acceptable. You can never be sure why a child is always late/ always forgetting their lunch box/ always going to the wrong room/ never knows the date (some of the reasons given on this thread for "good humoured" public "teasing").

There are so many possible reasons, (some of which may for eg involve diagnosed or undiagnosed SEN, neglect at home, mental health issues) and just because a child comes across as smiling and enjoying the joke, or maybe because you know their family or they appear to be open about themselves, really doesn't mean you can safely assume they won't be affected by constant throw away comments that make them the butt of a joke.

In fact many many people have openly stated on this thread that this sort of "banter" from teachers was/is really damaging to them or their child in school. In the face of that I find it incomprehensible that teachers would continue to rigidly defend it.

@boomwhacker

I entirely agree with you re: seeing this as a concern if it were a pattern of behaviour connected with what I knew to be a chaotic home environment

You are dependent then on what you know. I'll say again, you can't and won't ever know the full circumstances of a child's home situation. To suggest you do seriously risks safeguarding failures.

I've told you this before. I work in a very unique, very small environment where I do know the children and their families intimately. I have worked there for years and work very closely with the families due to the nature of our work.

So yes. I do know everything about what goes on at home. It's part of the work that we do with the children that we have very close links with home.

I would not make these claims unless they were true. In a larger school environment I would alter my classroom behaviour because I would be aware I would know the children and their home circumstances less well. But in my school environment, I can be 100% confident that I know exactly what is going on at home. Please stop undermining my professional judgement by implying that I don't.

So yes. I do know everything about what goes on at home. It's part of the work that we do with the children that we have very close links with home

You are completely deluded here. You know only what parents choose to present to you of their home situation. If you take this stance you WILL miss important indications of safeguarding concerns because "I know that family and they are fine". Unless you are physically in the homes of every child you teach, day and night, this is not the case. None of us ever know completely what goes on behind closed doors in someone else's home.

there are too many personal experiences that are colouring people's views of what I, and other teachers who do understand what I'm talking about, are saying, and not enough experience of actually teaching children OF SECONDARY AGE

I have to say, dismissing the experiences of those who are talking about their experience of being a student in secondary school in favour of validation from others who teach in secondary school seems like an unhelpful way of assessing the effectiveness of your methods.

It is certainly a very unique school.

@MakeItRain Exactly, like I definitely always thought it had its place, and am now very glad that being in my first year, I haven’t been confident enough to be “that” teacher myself! I have seen popular, experienced colleagues do it and it has seemed to be very successful. The most loved teachers at my school are the ones who seem very funny and “wind” the kids up. The experiences of people on this thread have made me reconsider my view.

Things I think are important:

1. You never know if the child likes it. Especially if you are a teacher with a great reputation for being funny/bantering and are popular. It can be upsetting for children who are on edge not knowing if they’ll be the butt of the joke but laughing along anyway. The anticipation of that can make it hard to concentrate.
2. Do teachers like this do it for the children or for themselves? I wonder if sometimes it’s a bit of an ego trip thing about how “funny” they are.

@MakeItRain I agree with you completely. It's really concerning.

@year5teacher exactly right.
When people go to see a comedian in a theatre some will be happy to sit at the front and be picked on. Others, like me, will hide at the back and pray not to be noticed.

@msbehavin Look, I don’t think you mean badly and I am not a secondary teacher, I am a primary NQT so I’m not going to preach at you like I know better. But even in your situation you CANNOT know 100% what is going on at home. Ever. I’m not undermining your professional judgement but we are not infallible and people hide things. This is not something to knuckle down on imo. This overconfidence that we know everything about our pupils’ home lives is what can lead to things being missed. I’m sure that you and your pupils benefit massively from the fact that you have known them well for several years and are clearly involved with the families, but we can never know and it’s important to remember that. I really think that even working 1:1 with a child and knowing their families for years, you can still never believe you know 100%.

@MakeItRain

I'm a teacher and I don't perceive this to be a teacher bashing thread at all. I've been appalled by certain comments from teachers on this thread about what they deem to be acceptable. Making someone the butt of a joke is never acceptable. You can never be sure why a child is always late/ always forgetting their lunch box/ always going to the wrong room/ never knows the date (some of the reasons given on this thread for "good humoured" public "teasing").

There are so many possible reasons, (some of which may for eg involve diagnosed or undiagnosed SEN, neglect at home, mental health issues) and just because a child comes across as smiling and enjoying the joke, or maybe because you know their family or they appear to be open about themselves, really doesn't mean you can safely assume they won't be affected by constant throw away comments that make them the butt of a joke.

In fact many many people have openly stated on this thread that this sort of "banter" from teachers was/is really damaging to them or their child in school. In the face of that I find it incomprehensible that teachers would continue to rigidly defend it.

Yes, I know all this.

In my, very small, very unique, school environment I do know all the children and their families in a way people in much larger schools or less specialist schools don't.

I have worked with many of the children I teach for years.

I know them well enough to be able to judge how my interactions are received.

I am fully aware of what bullying looks like. I am fully aware of what is appropriate and inappropriate interaction with children.

Everything has to be based on context.

In my context, my methods work with the type of children I teach.

In a different environment, perhaps they wouldn't. I acknowledge that. I'm not saying how I approach things works for every child, every time, in every circumstance. When you work with children, context is everything.

I've wasted enough time on this thread now.

I've been given a lot to think about. Some I'll take on board, some I won't. It's always good to be challenged to reflect and reconsider how you do things. I have been encouraged by some on here to do so, in a supportive way, and I absolutely will. I know I don't always get it right. I want to make sure I never make a child feel uncomfortable. I genuinely don't think I have, in my school context, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm open to that. Genuinely. But what I'm not open to is being called a bully or damaging children. Any jokes of the nature I describe are infrequent and circumstance based, not a constant barrage of 'banter' that seems to be what some people think. Most of the time I'm just teaching them the lesson. Most of our interactions are about me helping to understand something, encouraging them, advising them, and chivvying them along. The accusations being levelled at me that I have a classroom full of children crying inside and laughing along with a barrage of jokes that make them feel small is just so far from the reality of my classroom.

Anyway, I see that I've been labelled as a child hating bully and seemingly nothing I can say will change that.

I'm deeply sorry for the negative experiences of teaching people have shared on here. I sincerely hope I will never be considered such a teacher by my own students. The implication that I seek out opportunities to make my students feel small from so many posters is so wide of the mark that it's really just quite upsetting to read.I have dedicated a decade of my life to helping children in challenging circumstances reach their potential. It's not an easy job. But I love it, and I love the kids. I do my best.

@MakeItRain I completely agree. @year5teacher I completely agree with your points and I agree with your point number 2. They do not see their conduct makes some of their quieter children uncomfortable.

I stand by that you cannot know everything that happens in a child's home life, and to actually assume you do is a real safe-guarding issue (particularly if as a teacher you start filling in gaps yourself as to why children are late or forget their lunch). As I say before, no one knew about the abuse going on in my very upper middle class home; appearances can often be deceiving.

But in my school environment, I can be 100% confident that I know exactly what is going on at home. Please stop undermining my professional judgement by implying that I don't.

I am guessing that this is a defensive response to the comments on here, and I hope that I haven't contributed to you feeling attacked, but this is a truly concerning thing to say. My parents didn't know 100% of what was going on at home when I was at secondary school, and they certainly wouldn't have shared it even if they did! And my mum taught at my school and counted some of my teachers among her closest friends! But none of them knew that I was depressed and self-harming as a 13 year old, and I would NEVER have told a teacher, so there was literally no way of anyone having the insight you say you have and I am far from unique in this.

It’s the sort of hyperbole - ‘child hating bully’ - that’s a bit annoying.

Most people have gone for means well but misguided.

And if your school is as unique as you claim it makes your original advice worse.

I really think that if misbehavin has been working with a small class of 15 for several years, she has probably got the measure of them by now and any jokes are entirely understood as such.

If kids hang back to chat to her at the end, if parents say a heartfelt thank you on parents evening, if they're getting good grades and learning, then you're directing your ire at the wrong teacher.

If it's totally out of character, could the teacher possibly be having some sort of breakdown?

@msbehavin I am so glad you have reflected. You sound very passionate about your job and I am pleased that you still are, a decade on. You clearly care otherwise you wouldn't have been so riled by some of the posts suggesting otherwise. I hope you know that you can still be the great teacher you clearly aspire to be without teasing your students. I wish you a restful holiday.

@Introvertedbuthappy Exactly, you can have bloody dinner with the family every night and that still tells you nothing about what goes on behind closed doors. We can’t be complacent about this kind of thing.

I also think even if the child really does like the teacher, if they’re not one of those quick-witted children who can give a joke back, or even just a child who blushes easily, they might be sitting there worrying that a kindly intended joke will be directed at them and they won’t know what to say/will go red. It can be hard for those kids who desperately want to please, and see the joking going on between the teacher and the more confident children, and feel as though it’s somehow only accessible to the louder kids. Like a kind of club that they can’t join, and maybe they feel like the teacher has a different relationship with different members of the class. I think this a danger of the “I only joke with those who can take it” - which I thought before I read this whole thread! It’s been a seriously eye-opening read for me.

Very unprofessional and the teacher is opening themselves up to claims of bullying.

[quote year5teacher]@msbehavin Look, I don’t think you mean badly and I am not a secondary teacher, I am a primary NQT so I’m not going to preach at you like I know better. But even in your situation you CANNOT know 100% what is going on at home. Ever. I’m not undermining your professional judgement but we are not infallible and people hide things. This is not something to knuckle down on imo. This overconfidence that we know everything about our pupils’ home lives is what can lead to things being missed. I’m sure that you and your pupils benefit massively from the fact that you have known them well for several years and are clearly involved with the families, but we can never know and it’s important to remember that. I really think that even working 1:1 with a child and knowing their families for years, you can still never believe you know 100%.[/quote]
With all due respect, I do have several more years' experience than you and am fully aware of everything you're saying. I know how dangerous it is to assume you know everything and how possible it is to miss safeguarding opportunities by being hoodwinked by seemingly nice parents. I've had plenty of experience of that over the years.

Yes of course we can never be 100% sure we have the whole picture. We do need to constantly be on the alert. I'm very aware of that.

However, I work in a very specialised environment for children from very specific backgrounds. Our work involves constant liaising with external child protection services. When I say I know exactly what's going on at home, I really do. Because the children are with us for specific reasons that we need to know about in order to look after them properly.

Rather than assuming I'm naive, overconfident, etc., perhaps you might just want to be open to the idea that I might work in a very different environment to you? If I worked in a big state school my approach would be very different. But I don't. You have to adapt your teaching to the environment you're in. This is something you'll learn as you gain more experience. I wish you luck in your career - you sound like a lovely teacher who is really keen to do their best for their students.

It seems I have considerably more experience than you @msbehavin and with that, I would suggest that children with complex backgrounds are even more in need of positive role modelling from their teachers and even less able to cope with veiled sarcasm. Your recent posts regarding the type of students you work with have concerned me even more.

Here's an alternative perspective on teachers who tease/have banter and get it wrong.

As a student I was quiet and wanted to get on. In some lessons I could learn and the teachers would help me. All the teachers had slightly different styles, some I liked, others I didn't, but I felt secure as a student and I trusted them. In other lessons it was hard to learn because the class were misbehaving and us quieter students faded into the background. In some lessons we'd know backup would come, the disruptive students would be removed and we could get on with learning. But in other lessons the problem wasn't 1 or 2 disruptive students playing up for a weaker teacher, the problem was the teacher holding court. In those lessons we did very little, either because the main aim was the teacher being cool and/or students who'd never misbehave in 'old school' teacher's lesson suddenly got bold and bantery. I have no reason to believe that anyone engaged in the joking around was actually upset by it and putting on a brave face, but the message I took as a student in the room was that if you make a mistake then you'll be laughed at, that if you do anything that might draw attention to yourself then that would be taken as you wanting to be ribbed. Even though I wasn't involved in the banter directly, the impact of those teachers' choices affected me. I was ready to ask my parents to request a class move if I'd got those teachers for GCSE.

As a teacher now I realise that sometimes the teacher was the behaviour problem and the students were responding the way they did because the teacher welcomed and invited that sort of culture.

@year5teacher I agree completely, my eldest who is 12 is very quiet and sensitive, and teachers who love a banter with the confident ones just further entrench his negative view of himself as someone who can't join in. I also get the impression that the teachers who act this way find him 'boring' and I just feel desperately sad for them as clearly they are not skilled enough to bring him out of his shell in the way that some of his previous teachers have.

Teaching is a very personal job but it is a privilege, and as such those who teach have a very large responsibility as we are such important figures in children's lives. For me, part of that is creating a safe learning environment where everyone is valued and no one is allowed to leave anyone out or act hurtfully towards another, myself included.