To feel extremely depressed about how Brexit is limiting the lives we once knew.

[Persiantrio]

Presumably now, if you want to go shopping in Paris on the Eurostar, you will have to declare, queue and pay customs on any clothes / goods over a given amount at the border. How crap and inconvenient is that?

Same with any holiday purchases from anywhere in the EU? Not worth it.

Also if you order anything online that happens to come from the EU and costs over over £135, you get hit with massive customs charges of about 40%. Companies like Etsy etc are taking a massive hit as a result.

How is this “taking back control?” Its so depressing and backward. The only reason nobody is kicking off about this yet is because nobody could go anywhere anyway. People don’t realise the freedoms they had and that are now gone. What a shit and insular place to live this will be.

And I don’t wait to hear any predictable ‘vaccine nationalism’ waffle either (because that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I’m asking in this instance and we could have done exactly the same within the EU anyway).

@Treacletoots,

'The issue isn't your opinion differing from mine, it's that your opinion led to actions, which had consequences that distinctly impacted on basic rights I and my family used to have, but no longer do.

Buying a holiday home / retirement home in France, for example.

Taking the family dog on holiday

My daughter being able to study in another European country using the Erasmus scheme

Being able to buy things from the UK without facing a huge customs charge'

These are not even close to being 'basic rights' and it is this kind of statement that is so inflammatory.

How can people not see that there is a problem with flying in Eastern Europeans to pick crops for under the minimum wage and thus not allowing people who would do that job here for fair pay to have gainful employment is not a problem, whereas buying a second home abroad is a 'basic right'?

In all political decisions there are conflicts of 'rights' and the government has to make a decision balancing them. Brexit might well have been a bad decision, although time will tell. However, the wailings of the upper middle classes for the 'rights' that they have lost is very unedifying.

The entire UK population have lost these freedoms, choices & options, unless they can afford to sidetrack them. The 'Upper Middle Class' are not the ones who have overall lost out. What a silly statement.

Of course the whole ‘vaccine nationalism’ rhetoric, “look what we did as opposed to ‘them’ because we’ve got sovereignty, innit,” is exactly the kind of rhetoric to appeal to the mindset of those who voted Brexit. Us and “them.” And they will hail Boris as their great golden leader and vote him in again due to his wondrous handling of the pandemic. The economic disaster that is Brexit will be blamed on the pandemic. The poorest in society will, as always, be hardest hit. Who knows how long it will take for them to realise what they’ve sleepwalked into.

Personally, if we didn’t have kids in school and pets there would be nothing keeping us here now. I used to feel positive about the UK and the values we stood for. Now I’ve just lost faith in the public mentality and it’s not a society I can identify with anymore. Even London is losing its appeal and I never thought I’d say that. I wish we could get out.

whereas buying a second home abroad is a 'basic right'?

Nigel Lawson, home owner in France appeared to think so, but his wailings are OK because he's a Brexiter?

I know LemonRoses the government are Teflon, they can act as badly as they wish and nothing will stick. They know this.

And on this thread many people have stated reasons that the impact of Brexit on FOM is not as simple as standing in a different immigration line. I have pointed out that the impact is larger for disabled people, new rules will have a disproportionate impact on those who rely on guide dogs, and the fact that we will be subject to immigration rules from next year which we have NEVER been told about and people just let these things wash over them. Other people have raised issues which impact them more.

If the reason that people voted leave was because they thought there would be more inward investment and poor areas in the UK would have a brighter future then why are they not furious over the wasted money for the Brexit contracts?

We can't change what has happened in regards to the Brexit vote but we do have the right to complain and to hold those who have made our lives more difficult to account. Anyone who suggests we should 'get over it' or 'those are the rules' should give their heads a wobble.

We are having so many of our freedoms eroded, FOM, coronovirus restrictions which are necessary but there are different rules for the elite/ rich in society, and now we have erosions of our right to complain and protest about changes and restrictions that the government are imposing on us.

It's totally shocking. As a nation we are so apathetic.

@Peregrina

Lots of people voted for the long term implications rather than the shorter term hit over the next few years.

Really? There wasn't supposed to be a short term hit - we held all the cards and so on.

I was answering your question about why the wealthier might vote Brexit. Not justifying an entire campaign.

The short term benefits are saving the third ( or second depending on what you read) largest contribution to the EU fund.
The second short term benefit is the accountancy. I love the idea that 28 countries are all working together but equally in terms of policy making it’s just a money pit.

@DoubleTweenQueen,

'unless they can afford to sidetrack them....'

You have to be able to afford to do something before you have lost it (in any meaningful sense) as a right.

I am really quite comfortably off but I do know less well off people and also have something known as empathy.

I just cannot understand why people cannot see how tough some people's lives are right now, and that their rights to shop in France, buy a home abroad, take the family pet on holiday etc etc are so far from what they want or need right now as they might as well be the right to holiday on the moon.

@thecatsabsentcojones

What I would love to know from Brexit voters is what we’ve actually gained. To me there’s absolutely nothing, economically it’s going to have marked effects, NI looks in fear of kicking off again, it could destroy the Union, it’s going to be difficult exporting out of this country, and hard to import certain items. What have we gained from all this?

Small businesses exporting things like foodstuffs of the country have been hammered already.

If the reason that people voted leave was because they thought there would be more inward investment and poor areas in the UK would have a brighter future then why are they not furious over the wasted money for the Brexit contracts?

We will need to see what will happen if Johnson honours his pledge to let Hong Kong Chinese come in and how many take up the offer. Somehow I can't see every Brexiter welcoming it with open arms. I can see a good number of people being completely pissed off with it - if it happens.

OP I completely agree with you, except I’m on the other side of this & living in Europe.
We have to limit our buying from the uk to £20 or we get hit with whopping customs fees. I placed an order at Smiggle for my dd’s birthday - order was £60 but customs was another £40 on top 😱 Some are reporting that the customs charges are higher than the price of the item they’ve ordered!
Just this is going to have an impact on the businesses in the uk that have relied on customers from all over Europe. I now do not buy anything from the uk, it’s just not worth it.
What a huge shame, the whole thing. I feel so sad about what has happened.

@Peregrina

If the reason that people voted leave was because they thought there would be more inward investment and poor areas in the UK would have a brighter future then why are they not furious over the wasted money for the Brexit contracts?

We will need to see what will happen if Johnson honours his pledge to let Hong Kong Chinese come in and how many take up the offer. Somehow I can't see every Brexiter welcoming it with open arms. I can see a good number of people being completely pissed off with it - if it happens.

Hong Kong is not in the EU!

Hong Kong is not in the EU!

Point out where I said it was.

My comment relates to a potential influx of immigrants - because people here are denying that it's a factor in UK society.

Lama - it really is very sad. People will say, “F off morning about your Smiggle - we’re in a pandemic, Don’t you know,” but you think of how all these individual purchases are playing out (or rather not playing out anymore) and it’s a disaster. I ordered something through Etsy and the customs and other charges was almost the price of the item. The poor seller was so apologetic she even offered to pay it for me, but it’s not her fault the U.K. has voted itself into this mess. I feel sorry for people who have built up individual businesses like this who are being hammered. I can’t believe any responsible government would let this happen.

How can people not see that there is a problem with flying in Eastern Europeans to pick crops for under the minimum wage and thus not allowing people who would do that job here for fair pay to have gainful employment is not a problem, whereas buying a second home abroad is a 'basic right'?

Except of course we are bringing people from Eastern Europe to pick crops still. Who do you think is picking them? I think the first flight of about 200 arrived in April.

Personally, I see the Romanians helping us with our agriculture is a good thing. Just as Spanish nurses are, and Polish bakers.

“Hong Kong Chinese ... I can't see every Brexiter welcoming it with open arms. I can see a good number of people being completely pissed off with it - if it happens”

You linked Hong Kong with Brexit! When it seems from this thread it is often Remainers who are obsessed with immigration - particularly immigration from outside the EU.

“Hong Kong is not in the EU!”

You felt the need to clarify that???

@Persiantrio

“Hong Kong is not in the EU!”

You felt the need to clarify that???

I know!

I linked Hong Kong with immigration and thus with Brexit because enough people on this thread are trying to deny that immigration was a factor. It may not have been for them, but it's almost certainly true that while many who voted for Brexit were not anti-immigrant, most of those who were voted for Brexit.

We've already seen the posts that immigrants are taking our jobs and denying us services, when the published statistics show that in most parts of the country which voted for Brexit, there is very little immigration.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Treacletoots,

'The issue isn't your opinion differing from mine, it's that your opinion led to actions, which had consequences that distinctly impacted on basic rights I and my family used to have, but no longer do.

Buying a holiday home / retirement home in France, for example.

Taking the family dog on holiday

My daughter being able to study in another European country using the Erasmus scheme

Being able to buy things from the UK without facing a huge customs charge'

These are not even close to being 'basic rights' and it is this kind of statement that is so inflammatory.

How can people not see that there is a problem with flying in Eastern Europeans to pick crops for under the minimum wage and thus not allowing people who would do that job here for fair pay to have gainful employment is not a problem, whereas buying a second home abroad is a 'basic right'?

In all political decisions there are conflicts of 'rights' and the government has to make a decision balancing them. Brexit might well have been a bad decision, although time will tell. However, the wailings of the upper middle classes for the 'rights' that they have lost is very unedifying.[/quote]
What about the people who have lost jobs due to Brexit?

People losing jobs due to companies relocating to a EU country
People losing jobs due to the decline in overseas students and their money which helps fund universities
People losing jobs as the export market has collapsed due to customs charges and delays (this is the other side of the coin of people being annoyed about having to pay extra costs on their U.K. purchases, they will find an alternative source and not return)

There is now the risk of the US slapping high tariffs on U.K. goods which will further impact those companies who have seen their exports dive. Seeing as the U.K. is no longer part of a powerful bloc it has absolutely no leverage in the face of such action.

Is having a job not a basic right?

The daughter not having access to Erasmus will further disadvantage British youth, who are already disadvantaged by being largely monolingual and now not having their qualifications recognised outside the U.K. Not all who end up at uni are “upper middle” as you put it. I went and didn’t have a pot to piss in and it opened doors for me, as did FOM which enabled me to work in different countries (including bar work, not all professional roles). The not accessing Uni when you’re lower income is down to the high fees imposed by the U.K. gov. There are other cultural factors too, but in the days of the full grant there were definitely a lot of low income students, so that is a factor IMO. Nothing to do with the EU, this is all U.K.

Then there is the fact that the U.K. imports most of its food from the EU, including foods and other goods from outside the EU (they would land in one EU country for customs clearance then distribute out). That is going to get more expensive or less available and it will impact people from lower incomes more. It’s not just Prosecco and truffles, it’s basic fruit and veg plus other foodstuffs that are currently processed in the EU (see sausage company story).

It's normal for young foreign workeforce to do this type of agricultural jobs over the season. We've always had ads for these jobs in Spain, Greece etc. It's an adventure for some, income for others.

Picking fruit isn't particularly the best job to use as illustration of jobs being stolen from local workforce as traditionally it's done everywhere by people from everywhere.

Also, if you know of place paying less than minimum wage, report them

But even if it was a factor it would not apply to Hong Kong.

OP, you are quite obviously incredibly privileged...and equally as obviously blinkered in your outlook! I am actually embarrassed for you. The arrogance of your posts is astonishing.

You talk about the loss of shopping opportunities in Paris in your OP, and opportunities for your children, and in another post (to lament Brexit rather empathise) you tell us that your husband has had to tell 300 that they no longer have a job!! And you don't see how fucked up your priorities are?

Take a look at what is happening around you. Step outside your bubble perhaps, and put yourself in the shoes of someone who has just received that P45, or even someone who hasn't! Someone 'ordinary'...an average, non-privileged person, simply trying to struggle through on their 24k a year job and 3 kids to support. Because that's life for many in the north of England. They shop in Aldi and Primark 👍 Not Paris 🤦‍♀️

Only in UK people "struggle" on 24k... Seriously.

These are not even close to being 'basic rights' and it is this kind of statement that is so inflammatory.

How can people not see that there is a problem with flying in Eastern Europeans to pick crops for under the minimum wage and thus not allowing people who would do that job here for fair pay to have gainful employment is not a problem, whereas buying a second home abroad is a 'basic right'?

Well said.

It’s not just about the more affluent traveller although the primary driver (that was used to fuel hatred and which the anti immigration lobby fell for) - was tax avoidance for the very rich.

Britain’s annual economic decline has been the worst in the G7 at 9.9 per cent. In comparison, GDP fell by 3.5 per cent in the US, by 5 per cent in Germany, 8.3 per cent in France and 8.9 per cent in Italy.

The value of UK goods exported to the EU fell by 40% between December 2020 and January 2021, while the value of goods imported from the EU fell 29%. Trade with the EU represented 44% of the UK’s trade in goods in January 2021, the EU’s lowest monthly share of UK trade since comparable records began in January 1997.

That 40% means fewer jobs, more expensive food and other basics, a crashing economy with spiralling debts. It means more poverty. More demand for charitable services but less money donated to charities. It is those in the poorer areas who are hardest hit, but being conned into thinking that’s all about Covid19. A very good cover story and undoubtedly has an impact on some industries, but the primary cause of trade reduction is Brexit.