To feel extremely depressed about how Brexit is limiting the lives we once knew.

[Persiantrio]

Presumably now, if you want to go shopping in Paris on the Eurostar, you will have to declare, queue and pay customs on any clothes / goods over a given amount at the border. How crap and inconvenient is that?

Same with any holiday purchases from anywhere in the EU? Not worth it.

Also if you order anything online that happens to come from the EU and costs over over £135, you get hit with massive customs charges of about 40%. Companies like Etsy etc are taking a massive hit as a result.

How is this “taking back control?” Its so depressing and backward. The only reason nobody is kicking off about this yet is because nobody could go anywhere anyway. People don’t realise the freedoms they had and that are now gone. What a shit and insular place to live this will be.

And I don’t wait to hear any predictable ‘vaccine nationalism’ waffle either (because that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I’m asking in this instance and we could have done exactly the same within the EU anyway).

I think all the rabid brexiteers thought about was immigration.

I shouldn't be surprised, but it still shocks me that there are people whose social circles are so limited that they believe this.

I personally voted remain, but I know a fair few people who voted Brexit, and their reasons for doing so were varied. They range from partners at a Big4 firm to comfortably off tradesmen to left wing campaigners who viewed the vote in anti capitalist terms. I only know one Brexit voter (not a friend but an acquaintance) who I think was motivated by racism or anti-immigration sentiment.

Is it any surprise that the remain campaign alienated so much of the population when it describes people as "rabid" racists. Is it really so hard to conceive of people having different priorities and views to you?

Here is an opinion from across the Atlantic of the sick man of Europe. The underlining about the NHS suffering repeated poorly thought reforms and cuts is pertinent. He mentions the mostly privatised care homes. He doesn't say how it is something that happened almost unnoticed. Nor does he analyse May's 'Death tax' - her problem was bunging it in almost as an afterthought to an election campaign, when it's something that needs a full discussion

The trouble is, like so many articles, it's long on analysis of what is wrong, but short on solutions. What it hightlights for me is that we are sorely lacking leaders with vision. Johnson's babbling in Latin won't make the UK a global force again.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable

Out of curiosity do other countries use the same metric for counting covid deaths i,e. "within 28 days of a positive test" meaning covid deaths include people who've died of other reasons?

Our COVID deaths are understated if anything. They may include some who died of other causes, but they exclude far more people who died of COVID but managed to survive in ICU for more than 28 days beyond their positive test.

They absolutely do include many who died of other causes, and the number in ICU for over 28 days that then pass away are far less than those of other causes. There's so much more to it than comparing numbers, even to comparing it per million or any other equal metric. I don't think we have done well, but no need to talk crap either.

The social capital thing is interesting. There have been deep divisions in the UK for many years.

This doesn't help to explain why the wealthy of the south east also voted for Brexit. For them of course, their money will insulate them from the worst effects.

I'm not talking crap. Analysis has shown that the UK official death toll is understated. We won't know what the actual figure is for some time, but it's not expected to be lower than the current official figure - quite the opposite.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/uk-official-covid-death-toll-undercounted-fatalities

@Peregrina

The social capital thing is interesting. There have been deep divisions in the UK for many years.

This doesn't help to explain why the wealthy of the south east also voted for Brexit. For them of course, their money will insulate them from the worst effects.

It doesn't. But as I said above - people voted Brexit for varied reasons.

I think many will have been driven by a feeling of being alienated and left behind by more wealthy parts of the UK. Others will have been motivated by something different.

There have been no effects of Brexit on ordinary people.
Has all of the ordinary people told you this? Many countries have stopped trading with the UK.
UK citizens are not buying from the EU. The EU citizens are no longer buying from the UK? My debit card is happy at least I'd imagine the small businesses are unhappy.
Returns are a nightmare it is easier not to spend in the UK while UK citizens won't buy Europe.
NI local businesses have been left stranded it is a shame NI was thriving with invest NI and tourism.

Unfortunately with Farage having played such a prominent part in campaigning for Brexit, it's hard not to dissociate it with being anti - immigration. Never mind that Farage's campaign wasn't the official Leave campaign; that was a detail which escaped a lot of us.

Peregrina
Lots of people voted for the long term implications rather than the shorter term hit over the next few years.
In the same way we originally joined the relatively simple idea of a common market which evolved slowly into the EU machine we just left.

Maybe if people weren't so selfish we wouldnt have such a high death rate.
No mask, getting too close, spitting in street, having parties. I despair every time I go shopping some idiot is acting irresponsible. I do my very best to keep safe and to keep others safe but if you dare to say something wow you get a gobful. Anyway try to buy british especially while covid is devastating the high street. We all have too much crap so buy better and keep. Save the planet.

Lots of people voted for the long term implications rather than the shorter term hit over the next few years.

Really? There wasn't supposed to be a short term hit - we held all the cards and so on.

@TheOldRazzleDazzle

The ‘what’s the big deal filling out some forms, it’s the same as for other countries’ posts are so depressing. Yes, I’ve queued at airports and visited embassies to get visas, and all totally worth it to visit amazing places. But definitely better not to have to. It’s always seen as progress when one country drops its requirements to have another’s citizens need visas or otherwise makes it more convenient and appealing to visit. Increasing admin and charges is not a step forwards.

Yes, realise we aren’t talking about visas here, but it’s an example of travel-related red tape.

I’ve never been on a shopping trip to Paris or bought diamonds (abroad or anywhere else), but I have family in the EU and we’ve sometimes gone clothes shopping and always do a big food shop when we visit. Even if amounts spent mean this is still possible, it will still be in the back of my mind that there is a limit over which it won’t be worth it. Where previously I didn’t need to give that any mind.

Many, many ordinary British people have ties to the eu (though fewer in future, I grant you!) so I don’t think my situation is unusual or makes me ridiculously privileged.

It’s crap. Might register very low on the crapness scale, but crap nonetheless. Adding crapness into our lives is worth it if there’s a pay-off, of course. Here there is none, except the opportunity for people to indulge in the usual diamond shoes, world’s tiniest violin sneering.

I do hope all this is negotiable in future, because putting up barriers like this when the general trend has been taking them (and anyone who travels long haul knows this to be the case, which is why I find the no-big-deal posts so ignorant) is backwards and depressing.

Very good points you make! We have taken a huge step backwards, but people are jumping in in a Polyanna-ish way & saying it's not so bad, or worse still shooting you down with sarcastic comments for even daring to suggest there may be problems! They never travel abroad, or dream of working or retiring in Europe, so why should you? And as you say, there is absolutely no advantage to most people, except possibly for people with large offshore accounts who want to launder their money, or disaster capitalists.

@peregrina,

'The trouble is, like so many articles, it's long on analysis of what is wrong, but short on solutions. What it hightlights for me is that we are sorely lacking leaders with vision. Johnson's babbling in Latin won't make the UK a global force again.'

That might be because you have chosen an article written for an obscure U.S publication by a complete nobody whose bio says that:

I am a pragmatic and experienced political risk, intelligence analyst and researcher with industry and management experience, across varying companies.
possessing a strong understanding of global and also domestic politics.
Cross sector experience ranging from NGO security, political Intelligence for major TV news broadcasts, and security and incident response management for a well regarded financial firm.

As for the UK no longer being a global force; I would say that for a country with only 65 mio odd people, we are doing pretty well.

Currently 5th in the World ranked by GDP (I remember the glee from remainers as we briefly slipped to 6th and 7th in the World, no comment now naturally).

Seat at the G7 table.

Currently have 3 in the top 10 universities in the World, as ranked by the Times Higher Education Supplement, including the 1st and 3rd.

Ranked 4th in the World for global innovation

www.visualcapitalist.com/national-innovation-the-most-innovative-countries-by-income/

Whichever way you look at it, we are punching well above our weight. Of course there are problems and I am sure you will point me to articles written (mainly by economists) to say that this will change.

But I would hang fire with the doom and gloom forecasting until some of them actually come true in a significant way.

The quiet privatisation of care homes did come true - it's not something waiting to happen. I didn't disagree with May and her 'Death Tax' but she won no marks for political astuteness.

For the nth time - our emergency approval of the early vaccines was possible under EU law, and was achieved when we were in the EU. We also were not obliged to join the joint EU vaccine procurement program - which we didn't.
Just as we weren't obliged to join the PPE and medical equipment procurement effort, while still in the EU.
The EU took the unprecedented step to attempt procurement on behalf of all member states in an attempt to ensure equitable access for all. Brexit did influence this decision, in a determination to act in solidarity for all EU citizens. The EU tried to do a good thing. It got shafted on its supply contracts.
Member states all have different healthcare structures and are responsible for rollout of vaccine to their own populations. The fact that it has been a mammoth undertaking, not terribly well executed, at first, is hardly something to be celebrated or crowed over.

Our early approval, ahead of the EMA and the EUs joint approach gave us a head start and was achieved while still in the EU and under EU law. It was a good decision, but one that was open to us and to all member states. Of course, this Gvmnt will perpetuate it as a massive Brexit win. Any positive impression will be latched onto quite gratefully, particularly during this very desperate time. But it really isn't.
It is the accepted narrative though, because it's been repeated so often.

I know politics has always been a dirty business, but I've not really witnessed it for myself, before the Brexiit referendum, then the political world lost its mind, and we have this bunch masquerading as a Conservative Gvnmt. My MP is an old mate of Boris, plonked into a safe seat, perpetuating the HQ 'mistruths'.
I am seriously worried for what comes next for the UK (pandemic aside).
Nobody expected the leave vote would win.
BJ & Gove scarpered the day after - only to re-emerge later when they got a sniff that their party was imploding and desperately needed a people-friendly mascot to stay in power.
I would whole-heartedly support Brexit if I had any faith in the politics that has been left after the fallout, but I don't. Completely the opposite, I'm afraid.
So yes, I will keep my eyes open and make my own mind up, although my opinion in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant, it's served me very well through my successful life, so forgive me if comments on SM don't alter my view.
I am not anti-brexiteer, but I am very much anti-BS. (Not all brexiteers talk bs, before someone extrapolates on my behalf).
I don't think there will be a coming together of the two polar opposites any time soon. Arguing on MN isn't going to do it.

I wish you all well

Only on mumsnet would someone be grieving the loss of shopping trips to Paris in the middle of a global pandemic.

@DoubleTweenQueen,

'For the nth time - our emergency approval of the early vaccines was possible under EU law, and was achieved when we were in the EU. We also were not obliged to join the joint EU vaccine procurement program - which we didn't.'

I am not sure anyone tried to argue this point legally. What is legally possible and politically expedient, however, are two different things. I don't believe that, without Brexit, we could ever have gone our own way. However, I cannot prove this any more than you can prove the reverse, so it will always remain arguable.

'The EU took the unprecedented step to attempt procurement on behalf of all member states in an attempt to ensure equitable access for all. Brexit did influence this decision, in a determination to act in solidarity for all EU citizens. The EU tried to do a good thing. It got shafted on its supply contracts.'

It is debatable whether this was a 'good thing'. Many on here would argue that the EU is a collection of nation states and that there is, thus, no such thing as an 'EU Citizen'. In my opinion (and many others) the first responsibility of a nation state is the physical safety of its citizens. Countries like Germany, who could easily be totally vaccinated by now, are losing lives, as they agreed to throw in their lot with other far less successful nations. Altruistic or stupid? It depends on your perspective.

In addition, the EU has not been 'shafted' on its supply contracts. Let me assure you that, had that happened, they would be getting legal and moral justification in the courts. I suspect the only reason that they are not being sued over their outrageous statements by the pharmaceutical companies is that they will be a huge client for years to come. They were dilatory to come to the table, were being organised by someone with no relevant qualifications or experience, and were trying to nickel and dime companies who were already supplying at cost...

@Ddot

Maybe if people weren't so selfish we wouldnt have such a high death rate. No mask, getting too close, spitting in street, having parties. I despair every time I go shopping some idiot is acting irresponsible. I do my very best to keep safe and to keep others safe but if you dare to say something wow you get a gobful. Anyway try to buy british especially while covid is devastating the high street. We all have too much crap so buy better and keep. Save the planet.

I think it’s incredible that our government are getting away with forcing responsibility onto everyone except themselves and lie continually whilst changing history.

They chose to allow major events to continue to profit their coneys.
They refused to plan for a pandemic from 2016.
They refused to listen to risks on reducing healthcare budgets.
They refused to lockdown early and tightly.
They didn’t introduce mask wearing early enough.
They continually issue very vague and often contradictory guidance so they can lay the blame at the feet of others.
They didn’t close our borders and still haven’t.
They spent over 27 Billion on a failed track and trace - beyond corrupt.
They gave PPE contracts to friends and donors with no procurement experience and no tendering oversight.

That ‘othering’ is a good indicator of a government on a corrupt fascist trajectory.

@TheReluctantPhoenix Oh dear, Clearly rattled someone's cage this morning!

What I would love to know from Brexit voters is what we’ve actually gained. To me there’s absolutely nothing, economically it’s going to have marked effects, NI looks in fear of kicking off again, it could destroy the Union, it’s going to be difficult exporting out of this country, and hard to import certain items. What have we gained from all this?

If you can afford to hop on a Eurostar to go shopping in Paris or to go to Amsterdam for your diamonds then you can afford a few extra taxes and a bit longer spent stood in a queue at customs.

Honestly, the privilege and entitlement on MN sometimes is staggering.

Get over yourselves.

@LemonRoses,

Whilst I agree with quite a bit of what you say, it is the PPE which is the real scandal.

OTOH, the oft-quoted £27bio spent on test and trace (not 'track and trace') is not true. They have spend nothing like that to date, and 85% has been on testing (which has been successful) rather than tracing, which is the fiasco.

From Full Fact (link below):

'The £37 billion figure, however, does not represent the money that has been spent on Test and Trace so far. This is the total budget for its first two years, up to April 2022.

Actual spending on Test and Trace was £5.7bn up to the end of November 2020, and is expected to be close to £20bn by the beginning of April.

Nor has all of this money been spent on testing, either. Up to the end of October 2020, when around £4 billion had been spent in total, about £0.5 billion had been spent on contact tracing. Overall, the National Audit Office has found that about 85% of the £15 billion Test and Trace budget confirmed in November was assigned to testing, along with much of the extra money allocated to it since.'

fullfact.org/online/37bn-test-trace-spending/

Still does not make it great, but a couple of billion wasted is very different to nearly 30 bio.

^^@littlemissfoodlover

'Just like I'm sure many people who voted
For brexit would consider remainers actions to be stupid. I don't understand why everybody is always so vile about any opinions that don't match their own'

The issue isn't your opinion differing from mine, it's that your opinion led to actions, which had consequences that distinctly impacted on basic rights I and my family used to have, but no longer do.

Buying a holiday home / retirement home in France, for example.

Taking the family dog on holiday

My daughter being able to study in another European country using the Erasmus scheme

Being able to buy things from the UK without facing a huge customs charge

Just because some of these don't affect you, doesn't mean you had the right to take them away from somebody else. That's not how a free country is supposed to work.

LemonRoses - you failed to mention the Dominic Cummings jaunt, which far from leading him to getting the sack, had the Government queuing up to make excuses. That did it for me. Now that he's finally got the push, Johnson does appear to be acting a little more sensibly, although I think bungs are still going to cronies.

@FrangipaniBlue

If you can afford to hop on a Eurostar to go shopping in Paris or to go to Amsterdam for your diamonds then you can afford a few extra taxes and a bit longer spent stood in a queue at customs.

Honestly, the privilege and entitlement on MN sometimes is staggering.

Get over yourselves.

Exactly.

And this is why the Remain argument never cut through to lots of people, and why Brexit happened. Lots of people can't afford to go abroad multiple times a year, or import art, or have a second home on the Spanish coast etc. So the Remain argument was so easily dismissed and so gleefully defeated.

I really do blame this sort of thing just as much as the Farage brigade for Brexit.