Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel extremely depressed about how Brexit is limiting the lives we once knew.

999 replies

Persiantrio · 31/03/2021 20:10

Presumably now, if you want to go shopping in Paris on the Eurostar, you will have to declare, queue and pay customs on any clothes / goods over a given amount at the border. How crap and inconvenient is that?

Same with any holiday purchases from anywhere in the EU? Not worth it.

Also if you order anything online that happens to come from the EU and costs over over £135, you get hit with massive customs charges of about 40%. Companies like Etsy etc are taking a massive hit as a result.

How is this “taking back control?” Its so depressing and backward. The only reason nobody is kicking off about this yet is because nobody could go anywhere anyway. People don’t realise the freedoms they had and that are now gone. What a shit and insular place to live this will be.

And I don’t wait to hear any predictable ‘vaccine nationalism’ waffle either (because that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I’m asking in this instance and we could have done exactly the same within the EU anyway).

OP posts:
Hoppinggreen · 01/04/2021 09:59

Someone was telling me the other day how the new restrictions on movement are no big deal and everyone is making a fuss about nothing
They don’t own a passport and holiday in Scotland

tangerinelollipop · 01/04/2021 10:00

Report by Oxford Economics has no vested interests

You have no idea if can utter that research has 'no vested interests'

Rukaya · 01/04/2021 10:02

Limiting the lives we once knew’?Shopping in Paris? Is this a joke

Jealousy is an ugly emotion.

But I do think there are much worse things to worry about re Brexit. Brits are getting deported from Spain. Peoples retirements are ruined. Children can't travel easily and study abroad and work in Europe. Small businesses are being destroyed.

I live in the EU and used to buy from the UK all the time,everyone I know did. Now, we are all avoiding it as much as possible and shopping at home or the rest of the EU. It's not worth the extra cost and hassle of doing it...when you scale that up its huge huge losses to UK industry.

Maverick197 · 01/04/2021 10:04

I ordered a pair of skateboarding shoes for my DS's birthday. Been ordering from the same company for years, didn't even realise they are based in the Netherlands. Usually receive my order within days, this time shoes took ages to arrive, apparently the delay was due to Brexit and the extra customs forms.

Smurfsarethefuture · 01/04/2021 10:04

I find so much of this argument about immigrants/jobs really at odds with my experience and that of my peers.

For context, I am the daughter of immigrants who grew up in a big Italian/Greek/Irish/Turkish community in London. It was one of those disadvantaged, working class fairly neglected places that gets lost in the wider debate about poverty. Most of the families I knew felt they had no safety net (there was no social welfare for people like my parents - it’s a real insult to them for people to think that the 60s immigrants got anything). It was sink or swim.

I worked hard, went to university and came back to the area mid 90s. Lots of European money started to come through as part of project 2000 but at the same time the place filled with people from other wealthier parts of London and it was clear to see what was happening. A college became a university and the tone between old Londoners and educated new became very clear to see. I straddled both sides as a graduate with friends (very wealthy some of them) who were living in this cool, now quite trendy area. My job meant I was visiting the schools there, some of which were in shocking conditions. This is a Windrush area with a lot of the social tension caused by racism, inadequate funding over the years, etc.

I struggled to get a job I could see had much of a future (was diagnosed with a health issue that limited me). My father was very badly attacked in one of the many, random attacks on the elderly that no one was acknowledging at the time. My parents returned to their European country just before full accession and I saw first hand what happened from the perspective of a British person living in London and an immigrant in Europe.

So much is not being acknowledged that directly affected the working classes. It is really a shocking cover up imv. Jobs were not being properly advertised, resources were intentionally going in certain areas only whilst the working class, including myself were being deliberately driven in to an opposite direction. I ended up (when my job in the European city finished) in the European capital. I was with a group of similar women, French, Italian, German and Spanish. It was impossible to get anything in that country as everyone who had a job had got their friends and families in as cheap money flooded into the country and they had the chance to get on the housing ladder.
I spent years doing small, badly paid projects, voluntary work, free work.

No one is acknowledging the ideological change that happened regarding immigrants to the UK. I would support it normally (being the daughter of immigrants) but I also saw the other side. POC, imv particularly lost out here as very few are really acknowledging the incredible racism that comes from European communities. It has always been an issue and families like mine who are close enough to both sides have always seen this and had to walk the spaces in between. Couple that with class and years of neglect for generations in say Newham, then it was always going to end up like this as the working class were routinely humiliated. Have people forgotten the benefit stuff, Shameless, Jeremy Kyle - the get of your backside and find work mantra? I grew up with it, have always followed it but I saw something very different. The benefit systems vary in different countries, there were very different ideas about what was acceptable, there were lots of people who were in the flow of generous money being pushed into the space of those who didn’t. Why was that seen as OK? The Europeans I met were shocked at this and knew that there own countries would not have done this as it was a sure fire way to create conflict in already delicate communities.

The US was pumping free, online courses across Europe as these previously agrarian societies changed rapidly and it was impossible to get into something stable unless you had already been in the system. I was in by a thread. I came back to the London 5 years ago and the damage is really clear. There are a lot of mid 40 ye olds who are just lost. Absolutely lost in terms of having a secure life and anything meaningful and they know it. These are not people who have the skills to take advantage of Erasmus (which o did and loved). They are a huge weight on others in the communities who are trying to keep things together. I was teaching and I can say that the schools felt completely out of control. People are winging it so badly and there is no order or structure just a sense of the whip being cracked. My housemates (and I have written on here about this) include a guy who just couldn’t cope with London and had a violent breakdown we all had to deal with, several academics who think they are changing the system from within and are utterly clueless, a woman who is advising a local university dept about stuff that is completely wrong - illegal even but oblivious to the law as she is so poorly educated she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know. The local communitites have been very badly let down imv. (Particularly the elderly).

I honestly have lost so much respect for the left in how it turned on its own so viciously. I am left of center, a Remainer, pro Europe, academic (aspiring) but I have seen both sides and no one was being honest enough to say that Europe vs UK are two competing philosophies. Those of us born of European ideas and faith are testimony to that as we have had to navigate this carefully growing up. I just cannot understand how it was all implemented so badly and I, largely (with some reservations as I knew the Spanish university system well) was in support of it all.

Bagamoyo1 · 01/04/2021 10:06

Everyone knows that Brexit was about immigration.

The problem with freedom of movement is that it works both ways. Whilst it enabled Brits to travel and work freely in EU countries, it also meant that EU citizens could travel freely here too. That was fine when it was just just a handful of Italian exchange students working in Costa or whatever, but once thousands of eastern European men came over, the great British public didn't like it. And that's why they voted Brexit.

I'm not saying that's my personal view by any means, but from my extensive conversations with many people from different walks of life, that was the tipping point. Massive own-goal by David Cameron.

Rukaya · 01/04/2021 10:07

If the bus was leaver ‘fake news’, the idea that brexiting stops U.K. citizens working in the EU or EU citizens living and working in the U.K. is remainer ‘fake news’

This is nonsense, and you said it yourself. It won't restrict the highly skilled (as much, it will still restrict them as a less attractive option) but what about teenagers and the lower skilled? What about the vast majority of people who want to work abroad doing whatever they want?

Don't tell lies that you know and have already stated to be untrue.

Persiantrio · 01/04/2021 10:09

What are the benefits of Brexit?

I notice we are 15 pages in and not one benefit has been stated, just predictable obfuscation -

“this is a pandemic and you’re talking about shopping” (well yes, but if we were only allowed to talk about the pandemic, AIBU wouldn’t exist).

“I don’t do this. You sound different to me. F off.” (yawn).

It’s sad when people have to get personal and aggressive as they have on this thread.

Why not just stick with the subject - that travel / buying stuff from the EU has become restricted in a way we have not been used to? As travel resumes, people are likely to notice this.

In a normal debate, people would be able to say something like, “Well yes, the restrictions are annoying now, but on the other hand there is x,y,z to compensate.”

But people have to get boorish and aggressive because sadly, there is no “x,y,z to compensate.”

If there is, I’d love to hear it.

OP posts:
Notjustanymum · 01/04/2021 10:09

Many of the comments on this thread (condescending, lazily assuming all in favour of Brexit are racist and anti-immigration Etc.) are exact replications of the pro-EU language used to promote Remain.
On a business trip in Vienna the week before the referendum I was asked by my Austrian friend how I thought the vote would go. He was astonished when I said it would, just, go Leave.
So I explained that calling those who genuinely wanted to know why remaining would be better “uneducated”, “racist” and “”thick” (as most media eventually did in an appalling race to the bottom) , instead of laying out the advantages of being in the EU in a non-judgmental way, would most likely lead to a backlash from people who were fed up with being talked down to.
And it did, sadly, enabled and goaded by those who wanted to remain, but didn’t think to wonder why, for example, people weren’t happy with unelected people having a say over what happens in the UK, or, indeed, distrusted a body that hadn’t been audited for 17 years but which seemed to spend eye-watering amounts of money and claim excessive expenses, not to mention the erosion of rights that had been in place since the Magna Carta by the European Court plus many, many apparently and widely-reported unjust rulings made by that court.
To continue to go on openly despising all those who voted to Leave is IMO worrying, as that kind of language and “as-equally-dehumanising” assumptions about (let’s not forget) a majority of voters is very unhelpful, and isn’t likely to help the situation we are now unfortunately in, particularly when it’s used in the context of “not being able to go shopping in Paris” rather than focusing on the ACTUAL advantages we had, as part of the EU...
My future will be more difficult because of Brexit, too, as I travel a lot for work (or did before Covid), but because of the failure of the Remain lobby to tackle a campaign without resorting to nastiness and name-calling, I now have to just get on with it!

Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 10:09

@TheReluctantPhoenix a solicitor lost her license for stealing a pair of sunglasses in the last few years.

She offered to pay and it was the same amount of money as you suggest but theft like tax evasion is a fraud/ dishonesty offence so you would lose it. You have to declare it to your regulator or risk being in trouble just for not reporting.

A few years ago, a German partner of a UK firm was in trouble for not declaring some expensive trousers bought for his wife as a gift. That was with the German customs, but the same issue here.

There are not many cases that I’m aware of, I accept, but that’s because we have had customs free travel for the bulk of travel for a long time. It’s likely to increase as a risk.

People not declaring things coming back from the US have always been at risk. Usually you just pay the tax/ fine on arrival if stopped by customs, but that’s not the worst that can happen to you.

I’m not saying everyone with 5 euro over the limit will be jobless. But people can’t just say that others should be fine with breaking the law.

Diesse · 01/04/2021 10:10

I agree OP, it’s immensely depressing

Weatherwarnings · 01/04/2021 10:11

Can we stop saying British people are “unwilling” to do farm Labour jobs implying they are lazy?

There was an influx of applications for “fruit picker” type jobs when covid first hit but very few British were hired.

I read a lengthy interesting article about it but the jist of it is that back in the 80’s fruit pickers were paid by weight of what they picked. The job was often done by students in summer break or locals who didn’t rely on it as a sole income (e.g. people between jobs or women who worked part time wanting some extra money) . If someone was slow at picking they just didn’t get paid much. Now it’s paid by the hour, they don’t want someone who’s slow, older and can’t cope with standing 12 hours a day. They have contracts with foreign companies to avoid U.K. employment law and they charge the workers rent for shitty temporary accommodation. When the picking is done at that farm they all get back on that bus and moved onto the next farm. If the individual doesn’t pick enough each day they will be let go.

It is not practical for anyone with kids, a mortgage or tenancy to do this. Even students are doable anymore because the season has been artificially extended due to industrial greenhouses.

Food prices of these products are artificially low because worker conditions are abysmal. This isn’t something to aspire to.

the80sweregreat · 01/04/2021 10:16

The farmers flew people in last year on private planes to do the picking, so I think they will find ways around it all.

Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 10:17

@Notjustanymum

I don’t recall the name calling etc before the referendum to be honest. I think it was expected that Remain would win. I agree there was a lot of name calling afterwards though.

By far and away the worst impact of Brexit has been the cultural divide that it has riven through our society between Leavers and Remainers. Any fact based analysis would always come out on the Remainer side - business, economics, opportunity, sovereignty, red tape, consumer rights, workers rights- whatever you want. But that doesn’t give the full picture.

The referendum and Brexit (whatever happened to laws and treaties etc) has made us unhappier and more divided as a country. I lay that at the hands of politicians and media interests who ‘win’ when we are divided and who are invested in culture wars that don’t really exist.

Most of us just get on with things, and have to make do. But remain and leave has become a massive identity thing when very few people cared much 6-10 years ago.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/04/2021 10:17

@Persiantrio,

'I notice we are 15 pages in and not one benefit has been stated, just predictable obfuscation'

Umm, this might just be because your thread was ' AIBU in feeling extremely depressed how Brexit is limiting the lives we once knew' and you backed this up by an example of a Eurostar shopping trip to Paris.

I am not sure that people actually answering your 'AIBU' can be described as obfuscation, rather the opposite. They are directly answering what you have asked. You are being extremely unreasonable to be extremely depressed about having to declare expensive shopping in Paris.

If you want a different discussion, maybe try asking a different question??

Binswangers · 01/04/2021 10:19

Some of the attitudes on this thread are utterly depressing. I think you have a point OP.

I also feel sorry for those who want to retire to Spain. I wouldn't dream of retiring to Spain, but I'm sad for those who can't and also those who are having to return home.

A mad rush to reduce anyone's opportunities isn't laudable. Competitive 'I'm poorer than you' is so depressing. It's reminiscent of remembering your station in life.

DdraigGoch · 01/04/2021 10:20

@Persiantrio

It was easier to get to Paris from London than to get to Liverpool by train, for instance. This is because I live nearer to Waterloo than Euston. Sometimes it could cost hundreds for myself and three kids to buy a return to Liverpool. Ridiculous.
But Eurostar has operated out of St Pancras instead of Waterloo for more than 13 years now. Come to that, in one of your other posts you talked about Virgin being expensive and even mentioned BR. Just how long ago was it that you last took a train? Virgin don't run trains anymore and BR was wound up when I was a toddler.

Does anyone even pay the full amount for a fare? Most people are eligible for one Railcard or another and (outside of pandemics) there are plenty of cheap advances. As an adult and three kids presumably you'd use a Family Railcard which grants a substantial saving so it's already much cheaper than Eurostar, even on an Off-Peak Return. I've had advance tickets to Liverpool/Manchester at less than a tenner each way.

Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 10:21

@Weatherwarnings

I agree that artificially low food prices are not a good thing. But that is where we are and most people do not want higher prices, and many people really can’t afford them. I have lived in the US and in the EU and I personally found food here to be much cheaper. I found it really hard to buy good food on a budget in the US, it was a complete nightmare.

I don’t think the suggestion is that Uk people are lazy because they don’t accept low pay for fruit picking etc. Lots of people responded to the call a couple of years ago for fruit picking etc. But they couldn’t take up the jobs because they couldn’t relocate to somewhere else for 3m, there was no accommodation on offer etc, or they had no childcare etc. There were structural reasons that meant that it wasn’t worth it.

It’s not laziness, it’s economic rationality.

Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 10:22

(But it’s also unlikely to change so we are probably not going back to students/ locals picking strawberries/ piece work at the same levels. Farming has changed drastically in the intervening time).

FightingTheFoo · 01/04/2021 10:22

@Smurfsarethefuture

I find so much of this argument about immigrants/jobs really at odds with my experience and that of my peers.

For context, I am the daughter of immigrants who grew up in a big Italian/Greek/Irish/Turkish community in London. It was one of those disadvantaged, working class fairly neglected places that gets lost in the wider debate about poverty. Most of the families I knew felt they had no safety net (there was no social welfare for people like my parents - it’s a real insult to them for people to think that the 60s immigrants got anything). It was sink or swim.

I worked hard, went to university and came back to the area mid 90s. Lots of European money started to come through as part of project 2000 but at the same time the place filled with people from other wealthier parts of London and it was clear to see what was happening. A college became a university and the tone between old Londoners and educated new became very clear to see. I straddled both sides as a graduate with friends (very wealthy some of them) who were living in this cool, now quite trendy area. My job meant I was visiting the schools there, some of which were in shocking conditions. This is a Windrush area with a lot of the social tension caused by racism, inadequate funding over the years, etc.

I struggled to get a job I could see had much of a future (was diagnosed with a health issue that limited me). My father was very badly attacked in one of the many, random attacks on the elderly that no one was acknowledging at the time. My parents returned to their European country just before full accession and I saw first hand what happened from the perspective of a British person living in London and an immigrant in Europe.

So much is not being acknowledged that directly affected the working classes. It is really a shocking cover up imv. Jobs were not being properly advertised, resources were intentionally going in certain areas only whilst the working class, including myself were being deliberately driven in to an opposite direction. I ended up (when my job in the European city finished) in the European capital. I was with a group of similar women, French, Italian, German and Spanish. It was impossible to get anything in that country as everyone who had a job had got their friends and families in as cheap money flooded into the country and they had the chance to get on the housing ladder.
I spent years doing small, badly paid projects, voluntary work, free work.

No one is acknowledging the ideological change that happened regarding immigrants to the UK. I would support it normally (being the daughter of immigrants) but I also saw the other side. POC, imv particularly lost out here as very few are really acknowledging the incredible racism that comes from European communities. It has always been an issue and families like mine who are close enough to both sides have always seen this and had to walk the spaces in between. Couple that with class and years of neglect for generations in say Newham, then it was always going to end up like this as the working class were routinely humiliated. Have people forgotten the benefit stuff, Shameless, Jeremy Kyle - the get of your backside and find work mantra? I grew up with it, have always followed it but I saw something very different. The benefit systems vary in different countries, there were very different ideas about what was acceptable, there were lots of people who were in the flow of generous money being pushed into the space of those who didn’t. Why was that seen as OK? The Europeans I met were shocked at this and knew that there own countries would not have done this as it was a sure fire way to create conflict in already delicate communities.

The US was pumping free, online courses across Europe as these previously agrarian societies changed rapidly and it was impossible to get into something stable unless you had already been in the system. I was in by a thread. I came back to the London 5 years ago and the damage is really clear. There are a lot of mid 40 ye olds who are just lost. Absolutely lost in terms of having a secure life and anything meaningful and they know it. These are not people who have the skills to take advantage of Erasmus (which o did and loved). They are a huge weight on others in the communities who are trying to keep things together. I was teaching and I can say that the schools felt completely out of control. People are winging it so badly and there is no order or structure just a sense of the whip being cracked. My housemates (and I have written on here about this) include a guy who just couldn’t cope with London and had a violent breakdown we all had to deal with, several academics who think they are changing the system from within and are utterly clueless, a woman who is advising a local university dept about stuff that is completely wrong - illegal even but oblivious to the law as she is so poorly educated she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know. The local communitites have been very badly let down imv. (Particularly the elderly).

I honestly have lost so much respect for the left in how it turned on its own so viciously. I am left of center, a Remainer, pro Europe, academic (aspiring) but I have seen both sides and no one was being honest enough to say that Europe vs UK are two competing philosophies. Those of us born of European ideas and faith are testimony to that as we have had to navigate this carefully growing up. I just cannot understand how it was all implemented so badly and I, largely (with some reservations as I knew the Spanish university system well) was in support of it all.

Child of Eastern European immigrants here and I agree with a lot of this.

So much racism and paternalism on the remain side that everyone ignores.

I'll never forget about Richard Bacon complaining about finding a cleaner if Brexiteers won. It was demeaning, patronizing and, frankly, racist.

gottakeeponmovin · 01/04/2021 10:22

I've just flown to a European country and back - we were allowed to use the EU queue there and EU passports were in the same queue as U.K. in Heathrow and able to use the automated gates once they had shown the test certs so there is very little difference (so far)

Blueeyedgirl21 · 01/04/2021 10:23

Is this not all a bit champagne problems though

Worried about boat licenses and second homes and shopping trips to Paris ?

Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 10:24

@the80sweregreat - we still had freedom of movement last year.

They will not be able to fly people in on charters this year, not just because of COVID but the visas are not available in the numbers needed, even if they can attract enough people to come over.

DoubleTweenQueen · 01/04/2021 10:25

@Andante57 And there we go - that's not what I said, at all.
We are not insular. The majority of my cousins are French and German.
We eat lots of different and delicious things. That's different to trying to get a three yr old to eat a pre-filled baguette or gruyère quiche, when they'd prefer their eggy finger sandwiches.

the80sweregreat · 01/04/2021 10:25

The vaccine roll out and the EUs response was to it was enough to make leavers go ' there you have it' :( without any real facts of course.