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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel extremely depressed about how Brexit is limiting the lives we once knew.

999 replies

Persiantrio · 31/03/2021 20:10

Presumably now, if you want to go shopping in Paris on the Eurostar, you will have to declare, queue and pay customs on any clothes / goods over a given amount at the border. How crap and inconvenient is that?

Same with any holiday purchases from anywhere in the EU? Not worth it.

Also if you order anything online that happens to come from the EU and costs over over £135, you get hit with massive customs charges of about 40%. Companies like Etsy etc are taking a massive hit as a result.

How is this “taking back control?” Its so depressing and backward. The only reason nobody is kicking off about this yet is because nobody could go anywhere anyway. People don’t realise the freedoms they had and that are now gone. What a shit and insular place to live this will be.

And I don’t wait to hear any predictable ‘vaccine nationalism’ waffle either (because that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I’m asking in this instance and we could have done exactly the same within the EU anyway).

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DoubleTweenQueen · 01/04/2021 09:24

@Hophopandaway We lost - yes, much more than just a very close vote. And for what?

tenredthings · 01/04/2021 09:25

It's evident that Brexit has Brought us No benefits and we've lost a lot of freedom. We've gained unimaginable amounts of red tape due to the rushed and ill prepared desire to get Brexit done.
For those who are happy to not shop, study, live, drive or take their pets to an EU country, who don't mind the economic costs and enjoy having jingoistic patriotism rammed down their throats; as if being in some kind of elite British club is adequate pay off, then at least allow those of us who are sad to lament our stolen freedoms.

DynamoKev · 01/04/2021 09:25

And you don’t have any protection from discrimination, which we did before. An Italian couldn’t refuseTo employ you just because you were British.
That's the funniest thing I've read all year. Have you ever tried getting a job in Europe?

Persiantrio · 01/04/2021 09:27

Despite the fact that people are only interested in the “you sound rich F off” narrative, I have said several times that my husband has had to let hundreds of jobs go. Surely this is more relevant? These were real jobs at various levels across his organisation. And by the way, my husband came here as a REFUGEE (not from the EU obviously). He hasn’t “taken your jobs.” He created thousands of jobs for all sorts of people in recent decades. He is just one individual, a single entrepreneur, but believe me, we know a lot more and we can see how the economy is shrinking since Brexit. This is not a moan - people such as us have the resources to adapt. I realise how fortunate we are. But the people he had to fire have less options to fall back on.

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Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 09:27

@MorrisZapp

“ It's a shame, I get it. But it's just not the apocalyptic collapse of reasonable society is it.”

No one suggested it was. Just that it is - as you said- a shame. And worse than that, a pointless shame.

Persiantrio · 01/04/2021 09:27

“It's just a step back and slow grind economic and cultural impoverishment we are talking about.”

Absolutely!

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Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 09:29

@DynamoKev - I have worked in Europe yes, not Italy.

You need to separate legal rights and what your experience might be. It’s like the difference between being entitled not to be sacked because you are pregnant and the reality that lots of employers breach that right.

It doesn’t mean that the legal right to not be discriminated against is worthless because people breach it. It’s the kind of thing that you could have taken all the way up to the European courts.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/04/2021 09:29

@Persiantrio,

'Like you, I would point people to read LSE experts who have studied the impact of EU immigration to the UK since the A10 countries acceded EU membership. As you rightly say, J. Portes has much to say on the “lump of labour fallacy” in this regard. Also see extensive research by J. Wandsworth (2016, 2019). The 2016 report by Oxford Economics for the Migration Advisory Committee gives a very accessible explanation of why EU immigration was / is of net benefit to the U.K.'

The lump of labour fallacy is indeed a fallacy but, equally, if someone is prepared to do a job for a fraction of what it is 'worth' for a natal citizen as the GDP per capita is 1/3 of the GDP per capita in the UK in order to repatriate the money to an Eastern European Country, it will cost the jobs of domestic workers. I think that is fairly irrefutable.

'I can’t remember the exact stats, but it used to be the case that the vast majority of EU migrants settled in London / SE. These were migrants from “old member states” (France, Spain etc). What happened after 2004, was that gaps in the U.K. labour market (in construction, agriculture, processing) attracted migrants from new member states (mainly Eastern European) who were prepared to do jobs that U.K. workers simply were not. But the main change was the shift in settlement patterns. No longer contained in London / SE, they moved into more rural (and also culturally homogenous areas) such as Boston, Lincolnshire (the place with the highest Brexit vote).'

This is because the 'old' member states shared a roughly homogeneous economy with the UK and migration was driven by specific skills and opportunities in specific industries. These are too frequently found in London and the South East. More recent migration was arbitraging between minimum wage jobs in different economies with freedom of movement. Arguably, this is socially and economically destructive.

'But these areas have been depressed since the Thatcher era due to the failure of successive governments to invest. Immigrants did not “take your jobs.” If the immigrants has never come, the farms and processing factories would simply have closed - with far more devastating effects on the U.K. economy.'

That is arguable. You have no idea whether this would have been the case of not.

'There is no doubt whatsoever that EU immigration has been of net economic benefit to the U.K. This is fact.'

It is absolutely not 'fact'. And, even if it is probably true, it is very important to distinguish, as you did above, between migration from the 'old' EU of skilled labour, which was undoubtedly economically additive, to the migration from states with economies nothing like the rest of Europe, which was just displacing very low paid jobs as minimum wage arbitrage.

'Whether people in areas such as Boston didn’t like the fact that their high-streets were changing to include a few more Polish shops etc, is another matter. But feeling uncomfortable about change and economic fact are two very different things.'

Again you talk about economic 'fact'. These are not facts up to the standards of scientific proof. They are broadly believed economic truisms, which are impossible to prove or disprove (as economics, in this sense, is not a science)

To pivot from your expensive shopping on a Eurostar trip (from Waterloo) to a general argument about the pros and cons of Brexit does rather bring into question your rationale for posting.

bp300 · 01/04/2021 09:30

@sst1234

Arguments on Brexit aside, this thread is indicative that some people struggle to think that there is a world beyond their own town. ‘Oh I never to go to Paris, so quit moaning’. Some expanded horizons would help. You don’t have to go to Paris to know that not being able to go there and bring things back freely is worse than it used to be.
As it happens pre covid I would take about five trips to Europe a year but strongly support Brexit. I still view what's happening in my own town as much more important. I honestly can't believe that holidays would would be considered in whether you support Remain or Brexit.
Druidlookingidiot · 01/04/2021 09:32

@Hoorayforsunshine

Ursula von der Leyen having a say in how our country is run.

Because she was around in 2016.

She wasn’t. Just kid yourself that that was the issue.

I said twats like her. Look at the mess Europe is making of their vaccination programme. Did you really want to be part of that giant bureaucracy that couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery?
Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 09:34

@Alltheprettyseahorses regarding vaccine development. The EU may restrict countries from procuring vaccine - that wouldn’t have applied to the AZ vaccine where we had a public/ private development agreement. Different to a supplier just making it and us buying it (procurement).

So in relation to AZ, no EU membership wouldn’t have made a difference.

The AZ vaccine development is actually a really good example of public/ private enterprise and govt investment in a research facility gone well. Would that we see more of this kind of thing outside the context where 150k citizens have died.

Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 09:36

@Druidlookingidiot

We’re doing really well on vaccine delivery and uptake. We have done worse than the rest of Europe and most of the world in people dying from Covid because our Covid response and lockdowns was the equivalent of the piss up in a brewery you mention.

Nowhere else in Europe has as many dead per capita.

Druidlookingidiot · 01/04/2021 09:38

[quote Hoorayforsunshine]@Druidlookingidiot

We’re doing really well on vaccine delivery and uptake. We have done worse than the rest of Europe and most of the world in people dying from Covid because our Covid response and lockdowns was the equivalent of the piss up in a brewery you mention.

Nowhere else in Europe has as many dead per capita.[/quote]
And that makes their response to the vaccine OK? Nowhere else has had as many dead, YET. Are you watching what's actually happening in Europe?

LakieLady · 01/04/2021 09:38

You may not have any desire or wish to move to Europe. But you cannot deny that for lots of people - including lots of ordinary people- it’s now a lot harder than it used to be. Precisely the kind of people who are in the kinds of jobs where an employer is willing to spend thousands on a visa for you. That means highly skilled people are still mobile, but reduced chances for the low skilled Britons

I think it's sad that our young people won't have the chance to do some of the summer or gap year jobs my friends did: grape picking, lifeguards, bar work etc. A friend's son worked at a Dutch dairy farm during his holidays from agricultural college.

One friend spent 3 years teaching at the university in Leiden while doing a PhD, would that be possible now? Other friends have worked in IT in Germany, dental nursing in Spain and in a recording studio in Berlin.

I get that not everyone wants to travel or live abroad for a while, but it seems so unfair that they have denied others those opportunities. And for what?

I just can't see any gains, now or in the future, that will make up for what we have lost.

Morello339 · 01/04/2021 09:40

I can understand where you are coming from. It is little things. Like I used to buy my son an annual pass to Disneyland as his Christmas present.

Pay monthly, wasn't much, like £20 a month. And a few times a year we would book the £38 train to Paris and have time in the park.

We couldn't really afford holidays so this spread out cost helped us.

It's unlikely to happen now.

It isn't a huge deal but it is another inconvenience for no real reason. Could have been avoided.

Persiantrio · 01/04/2021 09:41

I posted about going to Paris, but it could have been any Euro city. I am hardly swanning off to Chanel every weekend. I’m not interested in that kind of thing and Chanel is everywhere anyway, even if I was.

I’m just making the point that our options now seem more restricted. I was just thinking of last summer (the last trip we had ore/lockdown) when I took the kids from St Pancras and we had a few days just wandering round. It was so easy . I love the fact you can do that and, like in London, you can constantly discover new things. It’s not about shopping per se. But last year and on previous trips, if we did happen to want to bring purchases back with us we could. No different to buying something in Manchester. Now you have to think twice. I think this is a shame. I’m not talking about fashion (though everyone immediately assumed I was). It could be anything.

It wouldn’t be so bad if I could see one thing we have gained instead. But I’m not seeing anything.,,

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Newrumpus · 01/04/2021 09:45

It wouldn’t be so bad if I could see one thing we have gained instead. But I’m not seeing anything

This sound bite seems more and more deranged as time goes on.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/04/2021 09:50

@Persiantrio,

'I’m just making the point that our options now seem more restricted. I was just thinking of last summer (the last trip we had ore/lockdown) when I took the kids from St Pancras and we had a few days just wandering round. It was so easy .'

You are taking a small difference very hard.

I have done 3 day business trips to Tokyo in the past. Shopping weekends in New York were very much a 'thing' pre covid and I remember having a long weekend with my parents in Paris in the late 70s. Queuing an extra 30 minutes is a bore, but won't materially change my life, and I sometimes noticed before that the non EU queues were shorter than the EU queues at some airports.

And I will continue taking Eurostar to Paris regularly, when allowed again, for a couple of nights. I am not a big shopper and, frankly, like 95% of travellers, will not declare clothes a little over the limit. Why would I? If I want to buy artwork costing thousands (for instance). I will get the gallery to arrange shipment along with customs clearance.

Persiantrio · 01/04/2021 09:51

@TheReluctantPhoenix - as I said, the 2016 MAC Report by Oxford Economics has no vested interests and is compiled from “bottom up” data. Whether you want to take it as fact or not is up to you, but certainly, as far as I can see, this is the most comprehensive and the fire reliable study on the economic impact of EU migration to the U.K, both from static and life-cycle perspectives. Also see Dustmann and Frattini (2012, 2014).

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Hoorayforsunshine · 01/04/2021 09:55

If you do not declare items over the personal threshold then you are committing tax evasion.

You might be fine with that @TheReluctantPhoenix I’m not. Brexit has made the same behaviour criminal when it was fine before, in your example.

I wouldn’t commit tax evasion not just because it’s wrong but if caught i would lose my licence to work. Any professional who is before a regulated body would be at the same risk.

People need to stop suggesting breaking customs requirements is nothing.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/04/2021 09:56

@Persiantrio,

'The 2016 MAC Report by Oxford Economics has no vested interests and is compiled from “bottom up” data.'

No vested interests? On what basis do you make that claim? Their main clients are large international corporations and banks and hedge funds (my betting is the vast majority of their income comes from the banks and hedge funds).

Their entire client base will clearly suffer from Brexit.

Does not (necessarily) make their analysis wrong but they would have pissed off an awful lot of clients if they came down on the other side of the argument!

gottakeeponmovin · 01/04/2021 09:57

This is ridiculous scaremongering. It's no different from going on a shopping trip to New York which many do. Have you ever been stopped and asked to declare your souvenirs? I travel all over the world multiple times a year and no one has ever confiscated my fridge magnets. I think they have bigger things to worry about. I am hit because I have a house in Europe and can't send anything from here anymore without a customs charge but hey ho I will cope.

Andante57 · 01/04/2021 09:57

The children are fussy and don't eat what's on offer at these places

Doubletweenqueen that sounds quite insular. “We like going abroad except the children won’t eat the horrible foreign food”.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/04/2021 09:59

@Hoorayforsunshine,

Seriously, give over!

The worst that will happen for a few hundred pounds worth of clothes is that you will lose the clothes.

You will not lose your licence for £50 worth of 'tax evasion' (20% of £300 say).

If you disagree, show me one licence ever lost for this in the UK. It would make the news.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/04/2021 09:59

£60 of tax evasion...