To feel extremely depressed about how Brexit is limiting the lives we once knew.

[Persiantrio]

Presumably now, if you want to go shopping in Paris on the Eurostar, you will have to declare, queue and pay customs on any clothes / goods over a given amount at the border. How crap and inconvenient is that?

Same with any holiday purchases from anywhere in the EU? Not worth it.

Also if you order anything online that happens to come from the EU and costs over over £135, you get hit with massive customs charges of about 40%. Companies like Etsy etc are taking a massive hit as a result.

How is this “taking back control?” Its so depressing and backward. The only reason nobody is kicking off about this yet is because nobody could go anywhere anyway. People don’t realise the freedoms they had and that are now gone. What a shit and insular place to live this will be.

And I don’t wait to hear any predictable ‘vaccine nationalism’ waffle either (because that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I’m asking in this instance and we could have done exactly the same within the EU anyway).

"we were often ignored, overruled and the promises made to us weren't worth the water they were written on, and fundamentally we were being dragged into a United States of Europe”

DB always quotes an example from his industry which was Road transport. Informed voices made representations to the Government about how some proposed EU legislation could be amended. The Government didn't want to know. When the legislation passed without them bothering to give their input, it was whine, whine, whine, this EU legislation doesn't suit us. But if they had bothered to engage it might have done.

It's like the kid who refuses to play with a group of children unless they play the game he wants. When the others say no, he runs whining to his parents saying that the others won't let him play.

They will not be able to fly people in on charters this year

There will be enough people here in search for jobs this year. No problem

the EC prohibited individual EU countries from procuring their own vaccines and how many will lose their lives because of it?

Not true, but believe it if you wish. The Czech and Slovak Governments have gone with the Russian Sputnik vaccine, which wasn't at the time approved by the EMA.

@Hoorayforsunshine totally agree with you about divisions that have remained, writ large in PP’s...

There were newspaper headlines about people who’ve been to University more likely to vote Remain, and definitely at least two discussions on radio and tv before the vote where disparaging comments were made about Brexiteers being uneducated, then there were all the posts on social media about racists vote for Brexit (and unfortunately a small minority of real racists supporting it, too).

I noticed it at the time and cringed at the divisive language, and felt sure that this would swing people who had previously not been that bothered, to vote to leave.

I wish my gut feeling hadn’t been wrong, and now people are still divided over it and I think that’s sad.

Sounds reasonable. If that's the debate you want, start it with a reasonable title.

@Persiantrio

You are 100% right.
It’s a shame some people decided to pick your example apart. Jeez.

There were newspaper headlines about people who’ve been to University more likely to vote Remain

Probably The Guardian

Apologies, it used to be Virgin trains to Liverpool. The last few times it’s been something else. I can’t remember what it’s called now, but it’s a crap service, frequently delayed and overcrowded. We have cousins there which is why we go about twice a year (but obviously not in the last year). If you don’t book well in advance, it’s very expensive. At weekends the trains are slower. On Friday nights very crowded.

But anyway, this is irrelevant.

@Hoorayforsunshine i think we’re in mostly in agreement although I think a lot of people DO think Brits are lazy and could do fruit picking (see constant benefit bashers and a few mentions of brits being “unwilling” to do these jobs in this thread).

I am a remainer but since Op asked here are some benefits of brexit:

Contributions to EU budget gone.
Allowed to differentiate when we want to which allowed faster approval of vaccination and may also help emerging sciences like GM foods.
Not being so closely linked to the euro (helpful if something like Greece economic disaster happens again)

Control over taxes like patented taxes (which should encourage r&d) and VAT
Aviation could cut air passenger duty which would be a huge boost to U.K. airlines
The finance industry can now invest in a broader range of assets unconstrained by eu laws
Companies emerging on stock market currently have an €8bn limit , this is now removed
Sign our own trade agreements
We could drop taxes on imports from outside EU that are currently in place to make EU imports cheaper

That’s from a 5 minute google.

It’s no different than going to the USA and buying lots of stuff and then (not) declaring it on your return.
I miss those days, I think our record was £4k worth of stuff between 3 of us 🙈 DD bought her own body weight in Bath and body works and Mac makeup!

I don't see why we should all just accept it and turn away from the evidence of the emerging ramifications, personal or national. It's important to guage effects and hold to account those in power and influence that have brought us to this point.

@tangerinelollipop

There were newspaper headlines about people who’ve been to University more likely to vote Remain

Probably The Guardian

It was research carried out at the time. People able to weight up pros and cons of a fairly sophisticated argument where they needed to be able to see through propaganda and BS

@Rukaya

I am interested in the effect this will have on the European economies - will they see a lowering of GDP?

I just don’t think we were comparing like with like yet there was an intentional spin out on things to play with peoples’ perceptions of what was going on throughout those years. Only UK, Sweden and Ireland opened fully afaik and it was clear that many of those countries had prepared their population to live in the UK better than we prepare our own!

Someone told me about a unit on his engineering course on how to make money on the London housing market. It was a forensic look at housing stock, conditions and repairs needed (underpinning, etc) and how to do it. The head of the English linguistics dept I interviewed with in a London university is European. His view on what we should be teaching in schools is influencing policy but so completely at odds with how the UK and British identity functions. Couple that withal the people who navigate in between these worlds and we just haven’t integrated our systems so that they function at the level necessary- we build in space for different ideologies and views whereas on the whole I think European countries are more streamlined and integrated.

I don’t know where I fit in now because I feel I have missed a big chunk of the progress my peers have made in the UK but I think I will also find it difficult being around those who are so dismissive of the w/c.

How, as a country did we let the media dictate so much of our National narrative?

@wincarwoo Very simplified overview, but lots of analysis has been done
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

I agree that the ‘unwilling’ to do work label can mean different things. Look at people saying why aren’t people on benefits sent to pick fruit etc - it’s unrealistic, mean and divorced from social or economic reality. But a fear that a lot of produce is going to rot in the fields, which is bad for the environment, the farmers and the consumer as prices will be driven up.

I would imagine that a lot of the benefits you list are not relevant to the magical ‘ordinary person’.

Focusing on signing our own trade deals, I do not personally see this as a benefit. I think of it as having to make our own trade deals, which usually take 10-15 years to realise and we’re a much smaller player.

It’s like saying you are no longer allowed to shop at the big supermarket but you’re fine because you ‘get’ to make your own purchases at the local corner shop. That’s fine - maybe you don’t want to shop at the supermarket for ethical reasons. But you can’t pretend that you don’t benefit from the supermarkEt’s ability to buy stuff in bulk, and that your options are likely to be limited and more expensive in the corner shop.

Again - it’s fine, and it’s not saying that the supermarket is better. But be honest about the differences. And the fact that, to carry on the analogy - until a pandemic meant that people didn’t like to shop in big stores, people liked supermarkets and would notice it if they suddenly weren’t allowed to use them.

I would much rather have EU food safety standards (no rat hairs in my peanut butter) than US food standards (a couple of rat hairs allowed in my peanut butter).

Also there has been some very questionable research coming out in the last 20 years and now that anyone can access this online it is muddying a lot. It is possible to find something that will validate any perspective but without context it is really quite meaningless. Lots of the good practice we previously had in place isn’t ‘researched’ so has been easy to dismiss yet it played a key role in creating stability in those communities.

@GenderApostate19 that is tax evasion.

Despite my fears, Brexit seems to have done fuck all to my way of life. I’d say the pandemic has done more to disrupt my way of life than Brexit has, but I’m not one for popping to Paris for a quick shopping spree.

@GenderApostate19 erm... congrats on your child’s rampant consumerism??

I shall hand myself in immediately 🙄
We paid tax on the stuff we bought, State and local. I won’t be losing any sleep over it 😉

@tangerinelollipop it completely makes sense to me that if you’ve been to university you were more likely to vote remain.

If you manage to get to university you are doing better in life than someone who doesn’t. You are more likely to have come from a stable background, not have abuse issues, be able to not have immediately gone into work at 16 or 18. And then once in university, regardless of your socioeconomic status when you got there, you would have been exposed to different people etc.

The main difference between remainers and leavers is openness. To ideas, people etc. As demonstrated by some of the comments here - to parody them, ‘what do I want to go to Paris for’. Whereas remainers are sad about those closed doors - even if they never wanted to, or couldn’t walk through them.

It’s slightly a state of mind but largely a product of background whether you are an open person. So I don’t find it at all surprising that people who went to university were more likely to vote remain.

It is partly about education but much more than that.

@Hoorayforsunshine I also agree I do not think the benefits of brexit outweigh the risks but it’s not right to say there are none. I was responding more to op who was whining no one was listing the benefits.

I'll have to catch up with this later, @Smurfsarethefuture your posts are really interesting. In my perceptions and terminology, Britain has been turning American for years and it is indeed a completely different system from the European. Many European countries are genuine social democracies, as far as they can be. Britain does not try, any more than America - we've now lost the language and communications to even think such things are possible. It's a capitalist utopia, run on behalf of the richest, with so much propaganda flying around to stop people asking too many questions. The most annoying thing is that Britain of all places really ought to know better as we saw it all before in the Victorian era - with rather more justification then as we were the originators and first to experience the Industrial Revolution. The results of letting capital reign supreme, with no public sector to moderate and negotiate for fair play for the working population, are well known here.

It takes money and a safety blanket to be able to travel around and find work fgs, and all that has been stripped away.

Despite my fears, Brexit seems to have done fuck all to my way of life. I’d say the pandemic has done more to disrupt my way of life than Brexit has, but I’m not one for popping to Paris for a quick shopping spree

It doesn't appear to occur to people that they haven't really noticed the effects of Brexit because of the more immediate effects of Covid. And those that haven't personally felt it don't seem to care much that many other people have.
It will catch up with you too.

@GenderApostate19 but you didn’t pay customs tax or the import tax that a local supplier would have had to pay. You know that because it was cheaper to buy there, otherwise you wouldn’t have bothered.

It was only a bargain because of those differences.

You don’t need to lose sleep. But you committed an offence, and you’re owning it- fine. I am not willing to commit that kind of offence.

I would rather not have a tax/customs structure that pushes people into petty offences - I always think that suggests the system isn’t working.