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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Double standards on mn.

744 replies

thatwasme22 · 29/03/2021 14:55

This week so far:

  1. I have seen various posters defend Caroline Flack for having issues. Maybe she did but then the same argument would not be made on Chris Browne.
  1. A thread on the physical attractiveness on male politicians. Imagine a male forum did this on females.
  1. A thread with a woman hiding her inheritance from her husband and encouraged to do so by many posters and him being called financially abusive for being sensible over money. When men do this on mn it's all ltb.

Am I missing something? I call myself a feminist so am pro equality and that's how I raised my kids but why is this not being called out on mn?

OP posts:
RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 01/04/2021 20:36

@MeltsAway

A thread on the physical attractiveness on male politicians. Imagine a male forum did this on females

You’ve obviously never been on:
Reddit
Any 4Chan
Twitter
Facebook

Or out in the real world ....

On the news the other day was a town where 70+ women had their intimate photos stolen and put online for men to grade them

Thousands of men many of them from the same village making comments and critiquing the looks of the women

One particular man said that he loved meeting one Womans boyfriend in the pub and thinking ‘ive seen your girlfriend naked’

daysofthunder · 01/04/2021 21:20

@Pumperthepumper

There's so much misandry on this site and people will do anything to defend it.

What’s misandry and how does it affect society at large?

You know what misandry is, and hatred or contempt of any group as a class has a negative effect on society.

Pumperthepumper · 01/04/2021 21:45

You know what misandry is, and hatred or contempt of any group as a class has a negative effect on society.

One widespread effect misandry has on society. Just one.

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 21:51

'and many women on mn go and google the statistic that 2 women are killed every week in the uk by their partners and use that to justify misandry or quash somebody who pulls up a double standard.'

Just catching up.

This from the OP is revealing.

Women go and Google femicide stats- as if most women aren't all too aware of the numbers!

And why do we do that? Why do we talk about women being killed by men they know? Because we think it's wrong? Because it worries or scares us?

No of course not! Women talk about it in order to have a go at men. Obviously!

Bloody hell.

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 21:58

I don't think men get a hard time really. There's usually a mix of opinions unless he sounds like a total out and out bastard.

And there's always posters saying things like.
Could he be depressed?
You shouldn't expect him to do anything if he works all day
Write him a list and remind him!
Nothing wrong with having a hobby. Find something else to do for the whole weekend
Why should you be entitled to any of his wages? Even though he asked you to be a sahm and expects you to feed and clothe 3 children by magic

Etc etc

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 22:07

Thinking about misandry.

It just occurred to me that the people who seem to be most horrible to men are other men. Tribalism, violence, gangs, how men who are 'different' are perceived.

I'm not sure how that fits into all this.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 01/04/2021 22:38

[quote Hamhockandmash]@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows
Also Amber Heard and Carmen Electra have also assaulted partners and not had their careers affected. I mean, Amber Heards career is going just grand and she has been recorded as
admitting to repeatedly abusing Depp. And regardless of whether he abused her or not back, his career is over, here is grand. Which is so ridiculous to me, why has it happened that way? It can’t be just because she is a woman because the utterly vile Chris Brown’s career is continued and no one says a word? I don’t have an argument either way here by the way, I’m just babbling away. I just don’t get who gets ‘cancelled’ and who doesn’t. The public, or the media, are very strange.[/quote]
I can't actually believe Carmen Electra and Amber Heard have been used as examples of women having rip roaring careers after abusing men.

Amber Heard was abused by Depp - a judge ruled that. So because she fought back that's not ok? And MASSIVE LOL at saying her career is strong and his is over. She has a secondary part in a Marvel movie and her name will only ever be associated with her abusive ex husband rather than her acting. And you're ACTUALLY serious about Depp's career being over, because he got dropped by ONE director? You're telling me Tim Burton isn't gonna case him in his next film? Load of rubbish. And he's got so much support for being a wife beater, people were positively teeming with Halle when Heard came out and said she fought back as if it's some sort of example that women are just as bad 🙄

And Carmen Electra is also a terrible example. Like Heard, she was also a victim of abuse and fought back. Let's not forget that Dennis Rodman is a sexual predator who has settled many lawsuits out of court from women he raped. Among his long list of revolting crimes.

God the MRA's are really scraping the barrel aren't they

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 01/04/2021 22:40

@thatwasme22

''Many women on Mumsnet have a background in the women's sector or are abuse survivors themselves, and are more aware of red flags and escalating abuse than you are.''

and many women on mn go and google the statistic that 2 women are killed every week in the uk by their partners and use that to justify misandry or quash somebody who pulls up a double standard.

Yeah god I mean 2 women a week is nothing right how embarrassing to being it up in discussions about violent men Hmm
JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 01/04/2021 22:46

Also, it so telling of the society we live in when people get so incredibly angry that women who have sons and are sick of violence against women and girls. Like they are doing some sort of disservice to their little boys by pointing out they want girls to be protected. I mean that is just the epitome of patriarchy isn't it - STFU about this horrible pandemic of violence and harassment against women and girls, as you may be robbing your sons of the god given right to exercise their male privilege at the expense of girls. Lie to them that their class isn't violent or 'that bad' - because their feelings are more important than girls' safety Hmm

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 01/04/2021 22:48

@Pumperthepumper

There's so much misandry on this site and people will do anything to defend it.

What’s misandry and how does it affect society at large?

@Pumperthepumper

I once read a brilliant quote that I wish I'd saved about the difference between misogyny and misandry. Something like:

"When men are misogynistic, they want to hurt women. They want to attack them, ruin their lives, make them suffer. When women are misandrists, they don't want the same for men - they just don't want to be around them. They want men to leave them alone. But the two are constantly compared because our society think men being ignored by women is as bad as women being attacked by men."

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 01/04/2021 22:49

A number of points are making me curious.

Statistically, men pose more of a risk to women than other women. Whilst it's true stranger abduction may be rare, it's by no means unprecedented. And even if a would-be assailant would stop short of going this far, the experience of being followed, stalked, threatened or intimidated is far from pleasant and is not something women should be forced to put up with habitually.

Statistics of male-on-female violence, particularly sexual violence, are horrifying. It's sadder still that most assailants will be someone we know.

These are irrefutable facts. And it's been pointed out numerous times on various threads here that potentially dangerous men don't run about wearing arrow-covered clothing or with 'P' for predator tattooed on their foreheads. We don't know which pose a threat, so it's actually sensible to be wary of them all. Women probably take stock of our surroundings on so habitual a basis, we may not even be conscious of when we're doing it.

Now here's where I get interested. The #MeToo backlash, and now a lesser backlash on this site, doesn't want women to talk about these experiences. #MeToo responses were that we were jumping on the bandwagon, why talk about it now after so many years, you must hate men, or simply 'shut up'.

Now it's arrived on Mumsnet; this isn't happening in isolation on the www. The undertow is the same. People - no small number of them other women - really do not want other women talking about their experiences with this. They will say or do anything to silence that conversation. Women who talk of abuse are 'man haters'. If we point out the glaringly obvious facts and statistics above, we are shrill harpies. People have held back from using the offensive phrase 'weaponising your trauma', but some posts of late (not necessarily on this thread; on the site as a whole) have come very close to that idea. Suggest that particular types of behaviour are unacceptable from men, or that we should not have to sacrifice our boundaries for their comfort, and we are 'misandrist'.

Questions I'd very much like to ask the people hellbent on silencing women who talk of their trauma and abuse at the hands of men are these:

What do you stand to gain from it?
Why is the idea of women talking about being attacked by men more taboo to you than the fact that these women have been attacked by men?
Why are you hellbent on silencing them? Especially when people must be aware that coming out and talking about this, given the social pressures (as illustrated on this thread) discouraging them to do so, is already hard?
Why would anyone suggest to a victim of DV that her husband 'may be depressed?'
Why should men never be questioned or challenged and their behaviour always accommodated?
Why is it assumed that wanting a safer society for women is tantamount to hating men?
Who, precisely, stands to gain from keeping the status quo precisely as it is?

tttigress · 01/04/2021 22:50

Any minor mistake by the man is usually greeted with, why do you put up with him, dump the bastard.

Naturally everyone has a lot of understanding when a woman makes s mistake, even if it is a really big mistake.

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 22:57

Johnny Depp career over???

I still see ads on the telly with him flogging perfume.

I have read that he has various addiction issues and that has made him very unreliable to work with- so if he gets less work then there's more than one factor at play.

On here I'd say it was 50/50 ish who was at fault (even though she won that court case).

starfro · 01/04/2021 23:00

Whenever there is a thread about partners not wanting sex, the advice differs massively:

Wife doesn't want sex - MN advice: man isn't doing enough housework

Husband doesn't want sex - MN advice: woman should get a lover

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 23:02

Tttigress that may be bias coming through.

Also you know ltb is often a joke?

I remember a thread on here once where a woman had always told her dh she didn't want to do a certain sex act.

One night he got her very drunk and while she was out of it he did the thing.

A week later she was still bleeding from the damage.

There were posters saying
Well he is your husband
Why wouldn't you try
Why did you get drunk
I like that thing
Etc etc

I suppose it depends what you perspective is which posts you notice. I know I do it and I try to take a step back when I do.

That thread was so shocking though I've not forgotten it.

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 23:04

There are loads of opinions on MN.

Rarely is a thread unanimous.

The idea that it's not some but all responses saying X is extraordinarily unlikely.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 01/04/2021 23:05

@NiceGerbil exactly, Dior did not sack him and he stills appears in ads for Sausage aftershave. Poor little wife beater ey earning millions Hmm

And mentioning the Depp/Heard case and double standards on MN is ironic as hell. The vast majority of posters hate Heard. When a video was released that she secretly filmed of him being loaded and seriously abusing her, posters here tied themselves in knots trying to make excuses for him. When he threw an iPhone at her head, and turned up to court the next day looking sad, half the posters said she looked "too" sad, so must be faking it, the other half said she didn't look sad enough, so must be faking it. Regarding the same incident, trying to stick up for Depp, one poster said "Well why didn't she just duck?" It was probably MN at its worse.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 01/04/2021 23:14

[quote JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows]@NiceGerbil exactly, Dior did not sack him and he stills appears in ads for Sausage aftershave. Poor little wife beater ey earning millions Hmm

And mentioning the Depp/Heard case and double standards on MN is ironic as hell. The vast majority of posters hate Heard. When a video was released that she secretly filmed of him being loaded and seriously abusing her, posters here tied themselves in knots trying to make excuses for him. When he threw an iPhone at her head, and turned up to court the next day looking sad, half the posters said she looked "too" sad, so must be faking it, the other half said she didn't look sad enough, so must be faking it. Regarding the same incident, trying to stick up for Depp, one poster said "Well why didn't she just duck?" It was probably MN at its worse. [/quote]
I agree: the vilification of this woman has been awful. Meanwhile Depp continues to show in plain sight exactly what the problem is. He is pursuing her relentlessly, using courts of law to try to discredit her. He's obsessed and he won't quit until he's bankrupt.

She wasn't an isolated case. Who could come up with more hard evidence that her handsome, powerful, rich, Hollywood-actor husband than Oksana Grigorieva? Numerous recordings of his terrifying rants and an admission that he hit her whilst holding their child. Before the recordings became public, saintly Gibson (a notorious drunk and anti-Semite) couldn't possibly have done such a thing. Presented with solid evidence to the contrary, it was 'she must have driven him to it', or 'she was a gold digger' as if that could ever have justified what he did. Of course he bought her silence.

Now the issue of Brad Pitt's alleged violence against both Angelina Jolie and her children is emerging, it's 'poor Brad, she's awful'.

However many court cases Depp loses, Heard will always lose in the court of public opinion. She'd lost before she even started. Because she's female.

Regularsizedrudy · 01/04/2021 23:32

Because just reversing the genders in a situation doesnt make them equivalent duh. We live in a world where men still hold most of the power with 100s of years of historical context of men oppressing women. So of fucking course it’s not the same when a woman does any of the things you have listed.

CandyLeBonBon · 01/04/2021 23:54

@thatwasme22

This week so far:
  1. I have seen various posters defend Caroline Flack for having issues. Maybe she did but then the same argument would not be made on Chris Browne.
  1. A thread on the physical attractiveness on male politicians. Imagine a male forum did this on females.
  1. A thread with a woman hiding her inheritance from her husband and encouraged to do so by many posters and him being called financially abusive for being sensible over money. When men do this on mn it's all ltb.

Am I missing something? I call myself a feminist so am pro equality and that's how I raised my kids but why is this not being called out on mn?

  1. I have seen various posters defend Caroline Flack for having issues. Maybe she did but then the same argument would not be made on Chris Browne.

There were more posters on that thread saying she deserved no sympathy than we're trying to make excuses for her behaviour. The 'excuses' you seem to be referring to were people suggesting that whilst her behaviour was unacceptable, the way she was hounded was inappropriate and legal proceedings should have progressed without the accompanying media circus.

  1. A thread on the physical attractiveness on male politicians. Imagine a male forum did this on females.

If you're talking about the Rishi Sunak thread - many women expressed discomfort at the comments and it was by no means the whitewash you're suggesting.

  1. A thread with a woman hiding her inheritance from her husband and encouraged to do so by many posters and him being called financially abusive for being sensible over money. When men do this on mn it's all ltb.

The posters on that thread suggestion she should leave, were recognising the distinct likelihood that she was in a financially abusive situation. There was still plenty of commentary stipulating that it was family money and she was in the wrong.

Am I missing something? I call myself a feminist so am pro equality and that's how I raised my kids but why is this not being called out on mn?

You're being wholly disingenuous and you know it. None of those threads were commented on in the way you've suggested. There were a range of views and balanced comments, and were by no means a singular opinion.

Perhaps re-read them after you've relieved yourself of that heavy chip you've been carrying on your shoulder.

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 09:25

Johnny Depp was ousted from his films yet Amber Heard wasn't. The outcome for Amber has been far more favourable. I really don't understand anyone who claims Amber has had it harder because she's female. Simply not true.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 02/04/2021 09:46

Depo was sacked because he lost the libel case

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 10:14

On semantics. But it is clear to anyone that there was wrong on both sides.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 02/04/2021 10:16

Depo

😀 oops

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 02/04/2021 10:17

@Butwasitherdriveway

On semantics. But it is clear to anyone that there was wrong on both sides.
I dont disagree with you...

But i think depp was incredibly stupid to start a libel case...and thats why he was sacked