Police drive way too fast, way too often

[TheReluctantPhoenix]

AIBU in thinking that too many police drive dangerously and unjustifiably fast without sufficient reason to do so?

Thread prompted by, in the last 5 days, seeing two cars (in separate incidents) driving down suburban outer London streets with cars parked on both sides, at a speed of at least 50MPH (they have 20 MPH limits). There is no way they could have stopped in time for a child or a dog, or a car which came out of a high street.

Also watching the series ‘Police Interceptors’ I get really angry when they prompt a chase at ridiculous speeds (70-100 mph) in villages. Then they say how they pursued car is being ridiculously irresponsible! And who are the master criminals that they catch? 90% of the time it is kids in battered old cars which are either uninsured or they are ‘drug dealers’ (a few wraps or spliffs).

I never observe the other emergency services taking the risks the police do, although I suspect they have many more life or death call outs.

I don’t care how ‘well trained’ you are (and the reality is an ‘advanced’ driver is 2 months of training), human reaction time is around 0.2 seconds, and that is plenty to kill or maim a child or animal.

So, AIBU in thinking that the police drive way too fast, for what frequently appears to be an adrenaline buzz, and that, these days, there are far more intelligent and less risky ways to keep our streets safe?

Really?

No I agree OP. I remember watching a police documentary and an officer admitted getting a massive thrill out of driving extremely fast and having to remind himself that the risks outway the benefits sometimes

Also watching the series ‘Police Interceptors’ I get really angry when they prompt a chase at ridiculous speeds (70-100 mph) in villages. Then they say how they pursued car is being ridiculously irresponsible!
If one car is following another, it is the one in front which governs the speed. The responsibility sits with the pursued car alone - no one forced them to do 100mph, they could have pulled over like they were supposed to.

I never observe the other emergency services taking the risks the police do, although I suspect they have many more life or death call outs.
I'd be impressed to see the fire engine which could handle like a 5 series. Ditto ambulances.

and that, these days, there are far more intelligent and less risky ways to keep our streets safe?
We could just ban all cars...

You know how highly trained they are, right!!?

They don't just pass their test and get to drive response vehicles 🙄

YABU my DF teaches rapid response drivers/blue light operatives. It's not just a few quick whizzes round the streets

Sometimes they're on a call but in an area they can't put their blues & twos on. They're not just driving at 50mph because the chippy is closing soon. No problem with the criminal spending then? Or the times they do actually catch real criminals? Police Interceptors is highly edited for TV entertainment.

Also watching the series ‘Police Interceptors’ I get really angry when they prompt a chase at ridiculous speeds (70-100 mph) in villages. Then they say how they pursued car is being ridiculously irresponsible!

If the pursued car stopped when it was supposed to, they wouldn't have to follow it at 100mph, would they?

And who are the master criminals that they catch? 90% of the time it is kids in battered old cars which are either uninsured or they are ‘drug dealers’ (a few wraps or spliffs).

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't think that way if it was your car that was stolen off your drive and being joy-ridden across the country (as happened to my parents).

I never observe the other emergency services taking the risks the police do, although I suspect they have many more life or death call outs.

I'm pretty certain it's easier to drive a car or van than an ambulance or a fire engine. I also often see ambulances going at 80+ miles an hour to get to emergencies. I'm sure that doesn't fit into your police-bashing narrative, though.

Do you know how trained they are? These aren’t shithead 17 year olds in £750 heaps of junk. These are professionals in well maintained specialist vehicles.
Literally... get a grip.

Well, let's just hope that when you call them they drive fast to get to you. Or perhaps you would rather they didn't.
How on earth do you know where they are going and to do what when they drive past you?

'Do you know how trained they are? These aren’t shithead 17 year olds in £750 heaps of junk. These are professionals in well maintained specialist vehicles.'

Who are chasing 'shithead' 17 year olds (who, despite their problems, are also someone's sons and daughters) in £750 heaps of junk. And it is these who most commonly do the damage. And, regardless of whether they should or should not have run, if the police had left it, they would not have killed someone else or themselves.

'Literally... get a grip'

www.statista.com/statistics/319294/deaths-during-or-following-police-contact-police-pursuit-in-england-and-wales/

30 died in 2019 in police chases and far more injured. I believe it was 42 in 2020.

www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/02/deaths-uk-police-pursuits-chases

And here is an article from the Guardian with a little more data and argument.

I don't think I need a grip. I just think that, on the whole, lighting up young nervous men is creating a dangerous situation more than solving it.

Maybe IABU, but it is far from unanimous.

Who are chasing 'shithead' 17 year olds (who, despite their problems, are also someone's sons and daughters) in £750 heaps of junk.

So, what, the police should just do nothing?

It's not always young kids in £750 "heaps of junk" either. But you clearly have an agenda here

YANBU and I am emergency services. The Police always drive far too fast past my house and it’s in an almost daily basis, it is only a matter of time before they encounter something coming the other way as they turn on the right bend at one end of my road. My DP is a blue light trained driver and he agrees.

'But you clearly have an agenda here hmm'

Having a different opinion is not having an agenda.

From the Guardian article:

'Best became uneasy because, as far as he could tell from his studies, only about 5% of police pursuits that ended in fatal collisions involved “someone the public would regard as a serious criminal”.'

'A police driver’s competency is meant to dictate the top speed at which they may chase a suspect, so that “advanced” drivers (two months’ instruction) can go faster than “response” drivers (one month’s instruction), who can go faster than greener “basic” drivers.'

'“It’s a myth that if you quit chasing, everyone’s going to run,” Geoffrey Alpert, the criminologist, insisted. He pointed to successes in districts of Florida and Baltimore where police were only authorised to chase violent criminals. David Best said that during his time embedded with the police complaints office he found “no evidence to support the idea that if you stop chasing, crime goes up”.'

To add to my last comment it is far easier for the Police to achieve those speeds due to the vehicles they use. You simply couldn’t hoof a fire engine around in the same way because they are both extremely heavy and tip a lot easier than you would expect.

And fire engines don't chase shitheads

Yep - they drive through Swindon Town Centre so fast - I'm amazed they don't smash into vehicles and people.

YABU and there's probably a factor at play here where you only mentally store the times you see the faster police cars and don't even register the times you see them going at a normal speed.

Having a different opinion is not having an agenda.

It's not to do with having a different opinion - it's just the way your thread and responses come across.

'“It’s a myth that if you quit chasing, everyone’s going to run,” Geoffrey Alpert, the criminologist, insisted. He pointed to successes in districts of Florida and Baltimore where police were only authorised to chase violent criminals.

What happens in America is totally irrelevant. The crime/justice systems are so different and so are the types of criminal - you cannot use an American study to argue the system in the UK.

You only speed if trained and to immediate risk. But the onlooker seeing a car speed past has no way to know how, who and if any lives are at risk.

With about 24000 deaths and serious injuries last year which is a reduction possibly influenced by Covid restrictions? Surely there are higher risks from poor driving, speeding, under the influence of drugs or alcohol, racing, escaping from committed crimes, fatigue and other from the public?

@cabbageking well put. If we actually started treating a driving licence as a privilege and the courts were not able to reduce or avoid bans after sob stories, perhaps the police would be involved in fewer pursuits as well.

Not all police officers receive advanced driving training. And it's impossible to tell if that have just from external appearances. So the police car barrelling at 50 in a 30 may have a highly trained officer in control and be as safe as the environment permits.

Or it may be a total knobhead who is having a lolz moment.

Until they hit someone or something, you'd never know.

'The Sweeny's doing ninety 'cos it's got nowhere to go'

@elephantoverthehill

'The Sweeny's doing ninety 'cos it's got nowhere to go'

If only the police were catching gangs of villains up at Heathrow.

I am an advanced police driver. I’ve had the qualification for fifteen years . I drive a vehicle that , like every other police vehicle , has a black box fitted with over 200 sensors attached to it , which record everything . Indicators , acceleration, speed , braking , you name it , it’s recorded . I have to personally inspect that vehicle for defects and the state of its tyres , whether the windscreen is clean etc, and sign for it , every single time I get in it. I put my personal driving license on offer , every single time I get in that car - so no , I don’t take unnecessary risks. Every time that light goes on, the first question is “ is this proportionate?” - and there are plenty of times that I have gone to calls rung in as emergencies that I don’t blue light to. But when I do , I don’t just leap in the vehicle and drive recklessly. Every drive is a constant risk assessment - state of the traffic , time of night or day , state of the road , whether it’s sunny or raining , whether it’s school kicking out time , amount of pedestrians , the type of call I’m going to - just off the top of my head. I was told by my driving instructor on my six week initial training course ( and then subsequent refresher drives and retests ) that there is no call so urgent that justifies an accident . If we go to stop someone , I gauge their driving first . See how they react to having me behind them. See if the vehicle has come to notice before , and if stopped before , whether they actually did stop, or made off . See if there are any reports on the vehicle to see if that might influence how they react when I light it up - if it’s known for being involved in say , robbery or burglary , then the odds are they might not stop. If those factors start coming up , I get my operator to call up on a specific channel, to ask for other units to help in stopping it, so that it doesn’t get a chance to make off and put the public at risk. Pursuit is an absolute last choice option, because of the inherent risks and in every single one I have to ask permission from a control room supervisor in order to continue. They do a risk assessment as above , and they have the authority to terminate it if they think the risks outweigh the benefit. And if they terminate , I have to comply because it’s a discipline offence if I don’t. Once the pursuit is ended I have to activate the black box, so that my actions can be downloaded , and scrutinised by a garage sergeant . Does all that mean that I don’t enjoy it ? No . But I enjoy it once it’s over .