Police drive way too fast, way too often

[TheReluctantPhoenix]

AIBU in thinking that too many police drive dangerously and unjustifiably fast without sufficient reason to do so?

Thread prompted by, in the last 5 days, seeing two cars (in separate incidents) driving down suburban outer London streets with cars parked on both sides, at a speed of at least 50MPH (they have 20 MPH limits). There is no way they could have stopped in time for a child or a dog, or a car which came out of a high street.

Also watching the series ‘Police Interceptors’ I get really angry when they prompt a chase at ridiculous speeds (70-100 mph) in villages. Then they say how they pursued car is being ridiculously irresponsible! And who are the master criminals that they catch? 90% of the time it is kids in battered old cars which are either uninsured or they are ‘drug dealers’ (a few wraps or spliffs).

I never observe the other emergency services taking the risks the police do, although I suspect they have many more life or death call outs.

I don’t care how ‘well trained’ you are (and the reality is an ‘advanced’ driver is 2 months of training), human reaction time is around 0.2 seconds, and that is plenty to kill or maim a child or animal.

So, AIBU in thinking that the police drive way too fast, for what frequently appears to be an adrenaline buzz, and that, these days, there are far more intelligent and less risky ways to keep our streets safe?

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Surely we can agree that we shouldn't leave people to it who steal cars and might kill people whilst at the same time think that the number of innocent people killed by police cars is a concern? One doesn't have to exclude the other.

I didn't say it does. That was directed at posters who think the little shits shouldn't be chased.

So bearing in mind the large number of people killed by police pursuits, do you think that the way 'little shits' are pursued should change?

Also, every police car is fitted with a black box type recorder. If we have an accident, our driving can be reviewed and scrutinised.

We now have operational “driving licences” on which we can be issued points, like a regular licence. Too many points, we can’t drive response vehicles anymore. We have different levels of training (standard response, initial pursuit, full pursuit, advanced, covert etc) and were not allowed to drive above our trained level.

They don’t just give us fast cars and tell us to get on with it.

Of course we should be held to account. But it can be taken too far.

A police officer who was driving on blue lights to the Streatham terror attacks were suspended because one of them hit another vehicle. It was a minor crash resulting in minor injuries, and people were being stabbed so they carried on to try and save lives. Prosecuted for dangerous driving. Unbelievable. So don’t say police have carts Blanche, they clearly do not.

If a child steps out in front of a police car en route to an emergency with blue lights and sirens on, it should be the parent in court, not the police driver.

@Cheshirewife,

I think your priorities are all skewed.

Personally I prefer not to have children needlessly killed, regardless of what happens thereafter.

And that even includes the 17 year old ‘shitheads’ behind the wheel of an untaxed, uninsured car.

@Cheshirewife

If a child steps out in front of a police car en route to an emergency with blue lights and sirens on, it should be the parent in court, not the police driver.

I agree.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Cheshirewife,

I think your priorities are all skewed.

Personally I prefer not to have children needlessly killed, regardless of what happens thereafter.

And that even includes the 17 year old ‘shitheads’ behind the wheel of an untaxed, uninsured car.[/quote]
Children needlessly killed

Ok, I’m keen to see some data. I can see 30 annual deaths. How many were the person being chased? How many police? How many innocent?

Of the innocent, how many children

My hypothesis is that the vast majority, if not all, of the deaths were the person trying to evade the police and driving dangerously to do so. Each one tragic but not a reason not to chase.

I’d also hypothesise that in the vast majority of chases it’s the pursuee who loses control, not the pursuer. I can see the argumthat says chasing encourages that dangerous driving, but still think not trying to apprehend criminals isn’t the answer

@Snackz @Cheshirewife
Do either of you have children?
Things untoward do happen to every parent occasionally. What a strange thing to say.

Guarantee you would be the same people who would complain when Police didn't respond to your emergency quick enough. Get the stick out of your arse and just live.

I have always taught my children to stop in a safe place until the vehicle with sirens has passed. A. For their safety and B. so that they don't delay the vehicle.
I don't know that some drivers however know what to do when they hear a siren.

Does everyone here know what to do?

@Snackz Yes, I do. These things 'do happen' which is also very sad. However, the police do need to rush to emergencies which also saves lives!

Only last weekend, we saw a car crash after been driven recklessly and the occupants ran. They could easily have killed somebody. Should the police not go after those people 'just in case'?

Emergency and Incident Support vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police, doctors or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights and sirens or flashing headlights, or Highways Agency Traffic Officer and Incident Support vehicles using flashing amber lights. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of such a vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass, while complying with all traffic signs. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but try to avoid stopping before the brow of a hill, a bend or narrow section of road. Do not endanger yourself, other road users or pedestrians and avoid mounting the kerb. Do not brake harshly on approach to a junction or roundabout, as a following vehicle may not have the same view as you.

@lightand sorry, tagged myself instead of you

My problem is being caught on a large roundabout with them or in stagnant traffic. It gets a bit confusing there.

It's worth teaching your children that it's often not apparent which direction the vehicle is approaching from when you hear the sirens. That is why it's so important that you teach them to stop and stay on the innermost side of a path until the vehicle has passed. When you hear a siren, even though a child might have a green man at a pedestrian crossing, they need to know that they can't cross until that siren has gone away.

Of course police drivers will be very aware when coming up to a school or something. In one of the videos I posted, the instructor comments constantly on when they're approaching residential areas, schools, etc. While they should be aware, children should also be aware.

Didn't Heather Mills McCartney lose her leg after a police car hit her ?

YABVVVU OP

unjustifiably fast without sufficient reason to do so

How can you possibly know the reason for needing to drive fast?

Oh My God...yes. ban all emergency vehicles.

@lightand

Yes, I do have children.

Any death of a passerby (as opposed to a joyrider) resulting from a collision, including a collision with a police car, is very sad. However, police save countless lives everyday, many a result of them providing a time critical response. Exceptionally few people are injured as a result of police collisions and the majority of them aren't the fault of the police driver.

As for joyriders, tough luck. Their decision, their misfortunate if they crash.

Cry me a bloody river. Police can't do right. One policeman harmed a woman and you have all gone nuts over it. There can be a bad apple in every bunch. We have to think relatively.

My hypothesis is that the vast majority, if not all, of the deaths were the person trying to evade the police and driving dangerously to do so. Each one tragic but not a reason not to chase.

That hypothesis is wrong. In 18/19, of 42 people killed in total, 20 were the driver or passenger of a vehicle being pursued.

@YouBroughtMeDaffodils

My hypothesis is that the vast majority, if not all, of the deaths were the person trying to evade the police and driving dangerously to do so. Each one tragic but not a reason not to chase.

That hypothesis is wrong. In 18/19, of 42 people killed in total, 20 were the driver or passenger of a vehicle being pursued.

Interesting, a previous link to stats said 30 in 18/19. That was eng+Wales though. Does your source break that down any further? Interested to see if we know how many of the 22 not being perused were hit by the perused vehicle vs the police? Appreciate this is a bit of detail though.

I’ll amend my hypothesis to say either in the chased car or hit by the chased car. I’m thinking v small numbers hit by police (but prepared to be wrong)

@YouBroughtMeDaffodils

My hypothesis is that the vast majority, if not all, of the deaths were the person trying to evade the police and driving dangerously to do so. Each one tragic but not a reason not to chase.

That hypothesis is wrong. In 18/19, of 42 people killed in total, 20 were the driver or passenger of a vehicle being pursued.

I think YouBroughtMeDaffodils is talking specifically about pursuits, for which there were 30 deaths in 18/19. (Presumably the other 12 deaths were from response driving, police directing traffic, etc.).

Ill-informed drivel. These 'kids' kill people.

www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/122025NCJRS.pdf

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/329259/FOI-30835_Road_traffice_casualties_and_collisions_involving_police_vehicles.pdf

It is very hard to find detailed statistics and research for U.K. police chases. There is far more research in the states.

I attach above an interesting U.S report about different thresholds for police chases in which it shows that the majority of chases are started from driving offences, including speeding, and the vast majority of pursued drivers are under 25, with a significant proportion being under 20. It is also stated that police pursuits result in more injuries and deaths than any other police activity, including use of firearms (remember, this is the U.S!).

I also attach the report of all injuries from police driving (including fatalities), which is 663 in 2009/2010, the latest year for which I could find statistics.

A policeman would not go up to an 18 year old carrying a knife and pull a knife on him saying ‘I am really well trained at knife fighting, have a go if you think you are hard enough’. They would try and de-escalate the situation and only use lethal force if they thought a member of the public was in imminent danger. There is no imminent danger to the public in the vast majority of police chases.

Before anyone has a go at me, saying I am anti police. I am not. As I have stated before, I admire police for doing a difficult job in v tough circumstances, especially this year.

I am also not against all police chases. There are occasions with terrorists or violent ‘professional’ criminals when they are merited. What I am questioning in the age of ANPR, DNA forensics, GPS tracking etc whether we should rethink the chasing of young petty criminals through urban areas at high speed.

The 663 is in the U.K., to be clear.