Police drive way too fast, way too often

[TheReluctantPhoenix]

AIBU in thinking that too many police drive dangerously and unjustifiably fast without sufficient reason to do so?

Thread prompted by, in the last 5 days, seeing two cars (in separate incidents) driving down suburban outer London streets with cars parked on both sides, at a speed of at least 50MPH (they have 20 MPH limits). There is no way they could have stopped in time for a child or a dog, or a car which came out of a high street.

Also watching the series ‘Police Interceptors’ I get really angry when they prompt a chase at ridiculous speeds (70-100 mph) in villages. Then they say how they pursued car is being ridiculously irresponsible! And who are the master criminals that they catch? 90% of the time it is kids in battered old cars which are either uninsured or they are ‘drug dealers’ (a few wraps or spliffs).

I never observe the other emergency services taking the risks the police do, although I suspect they have many more life or death call outs.

I don’t care how ‘well trained’ you are (and the reality is an ‘advanced’ driver is 2 months of training), human reaction time is around 0.2 seconds, and that is plenty to kill or maim a child or animal.

So, AIBU in thinking that the police drive way too fast, for what frequently appears to be an adrenaline buzz, and that, these days, there are far more intelligent and less risky ways to keep our streets safe?

My local force on their open day had a little test track set up where you could get driven round by coppers. We got one of the instructors. He did bad things to that poor car. Was great fun.

This thread however has a clearly obvious anti police agenda. You drive like a shit head, you get chased. You don't, guess what, you won't.

If they don't pursue, then feel free to let us all know exactly how you'd prove someone is behind the wheel.

I agree, too many of them like the "thrill" of driving fast. You don't get it as often with other emergency services who tend to drive at normal speeds and just use the "blues & twos" to get traffic out of their way.

I remember once being overtaken on the wrong side of the road by a police car on full blues & twos, who then went the wrong side of traffic bollards, and off into the distance. About a mile or two further up the road, I caught up with him outside a shop (presumably shoplifting case?) and he hadn't even got out of the car when I reached him. As I was passing, he got out and slowly ambled towards the shop, not even walking fast. Hardly an emergency!

Don't they sort of have to? To catch people???

this is the level of skill required to be a basic police response driver, not traffic, not Interceptors, just bog standard response. Watch what the driver does, how he responds to other road users, what he sees, and listen to the commentary. Then tell me its reckless......

@BLToutanowhere

My local force on their open day had a little test track set up where you could get driven round by coppers. We got one of the instructors. He did bad things to that poor car. Was great fun.

This thread however has a clearly obvious anti police agenda. You drive like a shit head, you get chased. You don't, guess what, you won't.

If they don't pursue, then feel free to let us all know exactly how you'd prove someone is behind the wheel.

Chasing is a pretty poor method. The police have radios, helicopters, etc. They can radio ahead to get other police cars involved, they can monitor by helicopter. They need to think ahead more and get other patrol cars in places on their potential routes.

It's crazy when you see chases on TV programs of the offenders car being "chased" by several police cars all in a row behind. Just what's the point of so many being behind?? They need to use their radios and get patrol cars ahead on the different route options. If you've got more than a couple behind, the rest are pointless and need standing down or at least told to follow at "normal" speeds just in case of a runner etc.

Any driver can actually do advanced driver training I think? Or you used to be able to.

Yep, I did mine through IAM. My instructor was a retired police pursuit driver.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@BillMasen,

A solution would be to not pursue beyond a certain crime for minor crimes but to substantially increase the penalty for fleeing if you are subsequently caught.

Obviously, in cases of serious crime and real emergency, police need the right to pursue.[/quote]
So which crimes should the police ignore then? No insurance? No licence? No mot? Speeding?

@Kazzyhoward

I agree, too many of them like the "thrill" of driving fast. You don't get it as often with other emergency services who tend to drive at normal speeds and just use the "blues & twos" to get traffic out of their way.

I remember once being overtaken on the wrong side of the road by a police car on full blues & twos, who then went the wrong side of traffic bollards, and off into the distance. About a mile or two further up the road, I caught up with him outside a shop (presumably shoplifting case?) and he hadn't even got out of the car when I reached him. As I was passing, he got out and slowly ambled towards the shop, not even walking fast. Hardly an emergency!

@Kazzyhoward have you thought that maybe he'd been inside and that back to his car to radio/get something? Or maybe he was on his way to an emergency and then got called off?

@Outbutnotoutout

You know how highly trained they are, right!!?

They don't just pass their test and get to drive response vehicles 🙄

Sometimes innocent people are killed by police vehicles. Highly trained they may be- they still have accidents. They go too fast and it’s not always necessary. It’s incredibly dangerous in built up areas. I’m totally with you OP.

@WhipperSnapperSteve

Any driver can actually do advanced driver training I think? Or you used to be able to.

Yep, I did mine through IAM. My instructor was a retired police pursuit driver.

Same here, I did the IAM course and then became an "observer" to teach other drivers to IAM standards for the test. Police advanced drivers are usually the examiners (mine was a traffic sergeant).

But there's a massive difference between "normal" advanced driving (IAM standard) and police advanced driving (traffic and pursuit officers), the latter being trained in pursuit, driving under blues & twos etc. "Normal" IAM driving concentrates more on planning and hazard awareness, but at legal speeds and complying with traffic laws/signage etc., so it really very different.

I was also a special constable and was sometimes a passenger in the traffic cars or accident unit. Some of their driving was dangerous for no reason, i.e. full speed blues and twos for a non injury minor road accident. And yes, even when highly trained in hazard perception etc., it doesn't mean they follow that philosophy, i.e. 50 or 60 in a built up residential area with parked cars each side simply isn't safe as they can't stop if a child runs out of a drive between parked cars - they're trained to be aware of the danger, but don't actually take steps to mitigate the danger.

You know how highly trained they are, right!!?
They don't just pass their test and get to drive response vehicles 🙄

Hate to break it to you but even with their special training the police can't defy the laws of physics.( I checked that with Superman himself!)

A 70mph head on collision reduces survival to just 25%.

It shouldn't be happening in a built up area unless extreme circumstances and if you tape it and post it I bet it stops. Pronto!

@Abraxan

You know one 'cop' so not they are all the same as the one you know.

You think I based my assumption on one police officer? I've sued the police. And they said to my solicitor 'pursue this and we will dig up dirt on you and drag your name through the mud'.

They are a law unto themselves. Disgusting.

You've basically done whataboutery about the police. NAMALT etc.

I have a cop friend. Who is not like that but most cops are dick waving dickheads. He admits they are. It's a culture.

too many of them like the "thrill" of driving fast. You don't get it as often with other emergency services

Them? Othering language much?

How have you measured how many police women and men just like the thrill of driving fast? How does that compare to the number of police women and men who are just trying their best to get to emergency calls?

As others upthread have pointed out a fire engine is not going to be as fast as a police car, doesn’t mean that the person driving the engine isn’t still pushing it as hard as possible.

Sometimes ambulance may be taking things a bit more steady because a patient is being worked on. I hope ambulances don’t saunter on their way to emergencies though.

I thought this when living in London. Of course much of what they attend will be time critical, and if someone's safety depends on it, but saw more than a few near misses with pedestrians and other vehicles. Don't see it here, but I guess there's less crime.

most cops are dick waving dickheads

What do police women wave?

@Avenueofcherryblossom

most cops are dick waving dickheads

What do police women wave?

The police (woman) I sued did. She bought into the culture and yielded the power that think they have.

@Avenueofcherryblossom

most cops are dick waving dickheads

What do police women wave?

Sorry, I just meant she was from the dick waving 'culture'. She was horrible, I'm not sure of the anatomy she thought she was waving. Maybe she was trying to emulate the masculine culture, which is probably worse

Coming back to read this thread again.
I would imagine most of the posters are the same posters that would start a thread if the police took too long after they had dialled 999 to turn up.
Like I said before when you need the police urgently you wouldn't care what speed they were doing.

OP, its all very well saying that the police should only pursue fleeing cars for serious crimes, but how do you know what that crime is when they dont stop in the first place.

e.g you activate your lights to stop a car in front of you for a routine check. they take off at speed. You dont know who is driving, the car has false plates or is 'in trade' ,there's no insurance so have no way of tracking them down at a later date.
Are they drunk, are they carrying huge quantities of drugs, have they just stabbed someone etc etc......

Also, the person criticising about the cop going to a 'shop lifter' and then rambling in. You have no idea whether that was where they were actually being sent to for the emergency. They could have been a specialist officer requested for an armed seige in the next town only to be cancelled as all now under control and no longer needed. So many possibilities as to why he was no longer in a rush, but instead of considering any of this, you just assume that he just wanted to drive fast and on the other side of the road.

I totally accept that not all cops are good people and yes there will be the idiots that like to drive fast etc however its the assumption that all or even anymore than a few are of the same ilk that really winds me up.

@lilsquish,

What you are basically saying is that it is ok to chase a car, risking life, because you might discover that someone has committed a serious crime. This does not strike me as sensible risk/reward assessment.

I don’t think my idea of only pursuing (at dangerous speeds) high risk criminals is pie-in-the-sky. In certain cities in the U.S, this is the law and researchers have found no increase in crime because of it.

I am also not criticising individual police officers and believe the vast majority are behaving professionally according to the current rules and prevailing culture.

I am thankful that our police seem so much more professional than in many other countries and their driving skills are awesome. I know that I could not control my car at those sorts of speeds.

However, no amount of training can turn a human being into a robot. Human reaction time will always be about 0.2 seconds (or more). That means at 20m/s, a car will travel 4m or 13ft while nerve impulses are travelling down your neutrons. In addition the stopping distance increases with the square of the speed, so at twice the legal speed it will take 4x as long to stop. And, although marginal gains can be made through technology, your specially kitted out BMW 3 series will take only a little less time to stop than your average ‘shithead’s’ beaten up old jalopy (it is to do with the limiting friction of the car’s tyres on the road. Finally, you cannot change the laws of conservation of momentum or energy. A car travelling twice as fast will do 4x as much damage to a human being.

I am definitely not anti police or critical of those trying to do a tough job under difficult circumstances. I am anti a policy where the idea of taking a wayward teen off the street is worth risking my children’s or any other children’s life for.

This area has been researched abs most of the research is on my side.

Neurons, not neutrons!

But how do you know they are high risk criminals if they dont stop and you dont pursue? that's my point in my last post OP.

YANBU it is quite amazing the speeds they get up to around here when it’s five minutes to the hour. Anyone would think they are trying to get back to the station for the shift change.
I often see “trained” Police drivers exceeding the speed limit, with poor lane discipline, tailgating etc. They know they are above the law.

I also agree about the chases - when I watch programmes like that I think there has to be a better way. Often thousands spent on damage to Police cars, danger to the Police and civilians. I am not saying they shouldn’t deal with crime but that seems a very poor way.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

'Do you know how trained they are? These aren’t shithead 17 year olds in £750 heaps of junk. These are professionals in well maintained specialist vehicles.'

Who are chasing 'shithead' 17 year olds (who, despite their problems, are also someone's sons and daughters) in £750 heaps of junk. And it is these who most commonly do the damage. And, regardless of whether they should or should not have run, if the police had left it, they would not have killed someone else or themselves.

'Literally... get a grip'

www.statista.com/statistics/319294/deaths-during-or-following-police-contact-police-pursuit-in-england-and-wales/

30 died in 2019 in police chases and far more injured. I believe it was 42 in 2020.

www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/02/deaths-uk-police-pursuits-chases

And here is an article from the Guardian with a little more data and argument.

I don't think I need a grip. I just think that, on the whole, lighting up young nervous men is creating a dangerous situation more than solving it.

Maybe IABU, but it is far from unanimous.

I think the death and injury figures speak for themselves. Appalling statistics.

[quote BetterCallSully]@Abraxan

You know one 'cop' so not they are all the same as the one you know.

You think I based my assumption on one police officer? I've sued the police. And they said to my solicitor 'pursue this and we will dig up dirt on you and drag your name through the mud'.

They are a law unto themselves. Disgusting.

You've basically done whataboutery about the police. NAMALT etc.

I have a cop friend. Who is not like that but most cops are dick waving dickheads. He admits they are. It's a culture.[/quote]
Don't accuse me of 'what about ery' or bring bring not all men ... into this. it's insulting and belittles the male violence issues elsewhere. This isn't about not all men, it's about the police, some of which are female too including traffic police and those involved in car chases, as discussed in this thread.

We are both talking about personal experiences. Not facts but opinions.

My experience is as valid as yours is.

My personal experience of the police system and of individual police is positive on the whole.

Yours isn't.

That's as far as the 'facts' go.