Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

I always laugh and think of that when people recommend getting a dog to lose weight because it forces them to 'walk for miles'. Not always!

Wow. Really? Laughter and a sarcastic comment is lovely in this thread.

I grew up in the 60s/70s. My mother was never what was then thought of as slim. I was aware as a child that she wasn’t happy with her weight. She was a size 14-16.

I think there are many complex reasons .People who have been abused (So sorry to hear MysteryForSaturday) thats awful .So glad you are getting some help now . We have Cars ,computers /a wide range of channels on TV .( A very sedentary lifestyle)plus lots of reasonably cheap food availiable .Takeouts and so on .Modern life is hard ,and many young people aspire to be slim ,rich and with an enviable lifestyle(Instagram stars).When this is not really possible ,many people become depressed and eat for comfort .There is no one reason really .A friend of ours is a Nurse in a busy hospital and she is well educate in nutrition.However weighs in at a good 20 stone! People were often slimmer in the past due to 1 )Food being more expensive and less of a wide choice 2) less driving as fewer people with cars 3) more people smoked which kept weight down ,but was horrendously bad for health!

@grieving321

Orangejuicer. I too have pcos. You need to find the right diet and the weight will come off. The insulin resistance makes it harder but a low carb diet is hugely helpful with this. I followed the blood sugar diet and lost 4 stone in 6 months without too much trouble. Weight watchers, calories controlled etc do nothing for me. I have to quit sugar entirely. I still have some to lose but my other pcos symptoms reduced as I lost weight.

100% agree.

I have lost over 30 kilos (66 pounds) in 4 months. I have PCOS, and for the first time have significantly reduced my carbs due to the insulin resistance.

I have a "carb treat" meal once a week (pasta, rice, potato, etc), and I'm finding that two hours after dinner I went to eat more but when I stick to protein plus veggies for dinner I'm fine with a cup of tea.

@Neonlightning

I always laugh and think of that when people recommend getting a dog to lose weight because it forces them to 'walk for miles'. Not always!

Wow. Really? Laughter and a sarcastic comment is lovely in this thread.

Wow. Really? Pretending to be offended is your contribution to this thread? Lovely.

@EarringsandLipstick

It's not down to will power at all

This is more correctly put as 'it's not always just down to willpower'. It is for some people.

Trying to blame the food industry as the only cause of obesity is problematic.

Absolutely. I think most people can agree that it’s a very complex issue. Upbringing, education, self-esteem, mood and poverty are huge contributors, as well as medical issues and sometimes genetics. For most people, however, willpower is an important factor. I genuinely feel that everyone can lose weight if they are really determined and have supportive people around them. They have to think holistically about health, however, both physical and mental, to do it effectively and long-term.

@CounsellorTroi

I grew up in the 60s/70s. My mother was never what was then thought of as slim. I was aware as a child that she wasn’t happy with her weight. She was a size 14-16.

Sizes changing as well. I veer between an 8 and a 10 dependent on the shop. I recently bought a vintage skirt from 1979, I can just zip it up. It's a size 14...

I feel my dc eat a lot but they’re still slim. We walk the dog (2 hours yesterday) and they scoot, ride bikes etc so are fairly active (balanced out with tv and consoles so not constantly outdoors). I sometimes wonder how dc do get obese as I’m not sure how they could eat any more than mine do. That said, I run 4 times a week (20-25km over 4 runs) plus dog walks and eat similar to dc and I’m officially over weight (by 4lbs but they won’t shift). I know it’s calories in v calories out but I think it’s much more complex and genetics are involved too.

You talk about the amount of fast food outlets you walk past to get to the supermarket yet you join in with the false narrative created by the fast food industry that their food is cheaper. It isn't.

Why did you falsely claim in your OP that a punnet of blueberries at Tesco is £4.50? they're 89p.

@firstimemamma

Healthy food is cheap though. I often buy my son a quick piece of fruit from the green grocers for 40p so cheaper than the 75p Easter egg.

I appreciate some crap food is cheap but this isn't always the case and a family splashing out on weekly takeaways isn't exactly saving money compared to cooking from scratch. Also obese families often get through lots of fizzy drinks as opposed to sticking with tap water. It's not always the cheaper option to eat unhealthily.

Agreed! Take away are definitely not cheap!

I agree with the running thing. I know we're meant to celebrate all running etc etc, but if I can overtake you at a decent walk, it's not really running, is it?

I'm definitely in better shape when I go to my weight classes than just running alone. But then, I'm not using exercise to lose weight. My biggest battles are the portion sizes dh makes. All healthy, from scratch, but too much. E.g. veggie burger instead of pizza. Great, but he adds avocado, veggie bacon, cheese etc. I worked it out it was 800calories! Then he saw his arse cos it was a nice tea. And I'm more active than him.

She was a size 14-16.

1960/70s sizes?

The whole "real women" thing isn't helpful either. Obesity is an illness and one that needs careful treatment plus some motivation to work towards lifestyle change. Another thing I've noticed since I've been doing research into food, body image and nutrition for work is that a lot of people know very little about food and nutrition. They can't cook, they don't understand about putting a meal together, they've never been taught. GPs can now do social prescribing and actually prescribe cookery classes

My biggest battles are the portion sizes dh makes. All healthy, from scratch, but too much. E.g. veggie burger instead of pizza. Great, but he adds avocado, veggie bacon, cheese etc. I worked it out it was 800calories! Then he saw his arse cos it was a nice tea. And I'm more active than him.

I know! We, or at least I, eat really healthily, but portions were all wrong. It's very easy to make 800-900 cal salad and then wonder why you are fat when you are eating so well and mainly salads🤦
Caesar salad in Pizza express has same or more calories than some of the pizzas....

I eat loads of chocolate and a couple of packets of crisps a day. Takeaway once or twice a week. On a Tuesday have a sausage cob and a cream doughnut from the bakery. However my lifestyle is very 1970s. I have a job where I'm very rarely sitting down. I walk absolutely loads. I go to bed very early, so do most of my eating before 6pm and rarely eat after that time. I do think it's a lifestyle shift we need, not necessarily a food shift. As several people have said, it's not like we were all eating lean meat, steamed veg and whole grains in the 1980s. I mainly ate Frosties, a ham sandwich on white bread with a KitKat and Turkey Drummers with potato waffles 🤣

I don't think it's got much to do with education. Pretty much everybody knows that junk food and excessive sugar are bad, but that doesn't stop people from eating them. Pretty much everyone knows that eating lots of veg and drinking water rather than juice and fizzy drinks is better, but that doesn't mean they do it.

Some people's upbringing, early life, influences etc make them better able or more inclined to follow a healthy diet, but that's largely luck. Human beings are programmed to love calorific foods, and we now live in an environment where we are constantly surrounded by cheap, easily accessed foods deliberately designed to push all of our pleasure buttons. If anything it's surprising that 100% of people aren't obese.

YANBU to say that fat-shaming and scorning people without the willpower to be slim is pointless and cruel, but I've yet to see any realistic suggestions of anything that really would tackle obesity tbh.

Bemoaning processed food, takeaways and the prevalence of snack foods is pointless because you can't put those genies back in the bottle.

I teach and can tell you that 'daily PE' isn't the answer either. You can make kids get changed and attend a lesson but you can't make them join in with enthusiasm, and you can't stop them strolling instead of running, hovering on the periphery of team sports or bringing excuse notes from home.

Arbadacarba we eat very little processed food - most meals are cooked from scratch. I will have a closer look at my menus and see what can be reduced further.
I suppose the oatcakes are processed really.
We don't eat ready meals.
I just need to not be tempted by the bread but I am generally really hangry by the time I get in from work and toast is easy!
Interestingly I had a flavoured LF yogurt at work the other day (had forgotten my snack and we have loads left over from lunches) and it triggered my cravings big time.

@NiceGerbil

We get takeaways twice a week and apart from DH are all slim.

A piece of fruit? Sugar, water and murder on the teeth on the whole...

I mean give your kid fruit sounds nice. My point is, nothing is straightforward when you get into the nitty gritty.

This. I'm obese and I can't eat fruit. The sugars burn my mouth and my teeth are too sensitive.

I can eat fruit maybe once a week, but I still like my sugar hit.

It's not as simple as just eat fruit.

There have been some very interesting posts here this morning.

I really wanted to send ❤️ to the posters who've shared their stories of being overweight & problematic eating patterns, diets etc. There are some very difficult situations here & my heart goes out to you. The different stories also illustrate the complexity of weight gain & loss.

@changi

She was a size 14-16.

1960/70s sizes?

Yes.

I had a really shit upbringing as one of four kids to a single mother with food/money shortages, mental, physical and emotional abuse. My grandmother rescued me when I was 11 and she was a cook who loved to bake and so I learned to equate happiness with food.

When grandma died I started binge and comfort eating. It seems that there is a never ending cycle of me starting to lose weight and then something happens in my life which sends me spiraling, death in the family, redundancies, serious ill health,
I'm now 22 stone and miserable. I eat when happy, sad, stressed, depressed.

I've never been well enough to lose weight effectively. My mental health has been all over the place, my physical health is poor as well(breast cancer surviver) I only lost a few pounds when going through chemo

I'm supposed to be losing weight to get my breast reconstruction surgery done which should in theory be a bloody huge kick up the arse but swimming pools and gyms shut down due to pandemic and my mental health went poof again.

I've asked for help with my weight since I hit 18 stone. I was told that I wasn't big enough for help. Went back at 20 stone and there was nothing they could do for me other than seeing a dietician and slimming world for 6 weeks. I know what's good food and what's empty calories.

I asked my mental health team for help with food issues and binging. I was told that there was no nhs pathway for this.

I'm now on the obesity clinic list and will be seeing a psychologist who specialises in food issues.

Pandora you've been through a huge amount. I hope you get the support you are looking for soon.

I teach and can tell you that 'daily PE' isn't the answer either. You can make kids get changed and attend a lesson but you can't make them join in with enthusiasm, and you can't stop them strolling instead of running, hovering on the periphery of team sports or bringing excuse notes from home.

No it's not the answer, and not just because lots of kids won't make the effort (for all sorts of pretty understandable reasons), but because weight is mostly about diet not exercise.

I think obesity is more complex than just saying (to paraphrase some) - "people put on weight because they over eat / eat junk". I think that can be a reason but is by no means the only reason.

I lived with a gastric band for years. I had it taken out 1 year ago and very quickly gained 3 stone - I didn't eat junk, I didn't snack; I ate three sensible meals a day to the point of being comfortably full and I piled on 1-2 lbs a week until I had put on over 3 stone. My problem was I had a daily dilema: eat so little as to be starving several hours a day and stay the same weight or eat an amount that satisfies you and put on weight. I had the gastric band put back in place to stop the weight gain and - by eating restrictively - I am now staying the same weight (but 3 stone heavier).

Lots of people have told me they have the same dilema. I worked out I needed only 1500 calories per day to stay the same weight - any more and I gained. Try living on 1500 calories per day forever - its not easy.

I think we need to talk about how - for lots of people - eating the amount their appetite suggests results in weight gain and discuss the reasons for this. Take this effect seriously and do some research into why and what can be done to counteract this / help people in this situation.

Not all overweight peopkle are overeating / binge eating / eating junk. Many are just eating the recommended 2000 calories per day but - sadly for them - only need 1500.