Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

I feel sad about the amount of clearly very overweight children / teens that you see these days. It seems to be the norm now, whereas when I was at school (70's / 80's) there was maybe one or two in each year. Someone on a local FB group recently was asking about weight loss tips for their 10yo DS who was now fitting into small men's clothes . Great that she was looking for solutions. Not so great that a few people suggested Slimming World for kids.
These children who are overweight now have a huge chance of being overweight for the rest of their lives. Weight and obesity are indeed incredibly complex issues, but it should not become acceptable for children to be overweight or obese unless there are underlying medical reasons for them to be overweight.

Kitfish, if anything over 1500 calories results in weight gain, the person must be very light already. To increase the number of calories they can eat, they could increase the amount of exercise they do.

@lazylinguist

I teach and can tell you that 'daily PE' isn't the answer either. You can make kids get changed and attend a lesson but you can't make them join in with enthusiasm, and you can't stop them strolling instead of running, hovering on the periphery of team sports or bringing excuse notes from home.

No it's not the answer, and not just because lots of kids won't make the effort (for all sorts of pretty understandable reasons), but because weight is mostly about diet not exercise.

I agree that weight is more about diet than exercise (80/20 I believe is usually quoted?). But if a child is overweight then physical exercise is going to be harder so there is a greater chance that they won't want to participate. It's a vicious circle.

Also consider how often you see posts on MN about cyclists having the gall of cycling on the road and holding up traffic yada yada. Or how many kids are driven under a mile to school. It all contributes.

To put on 2lb per week, someone would need to be eating 1000 calories per day more than they need.

So many factors in this. I look around my area now and see a massive choice of fast food places,:most are serving foods which are high in fat, calories, salt and sugar.

The way we eat has changed in the last 40 yrs: ready meals, frozen foods etc are much cheaper, more abundant but not necessarily healthy.

Cheap, abundant alcohol. This piles on the pounds.

A lot of us have access to cars which cuts down on exercise.

The food industry giants is not always honest about the levels of sugar in their products - adding more sugar products covertly in recipes is manipulative - it encourages your palate to accept a sweeter taste.

Mainstream media/ Social media: it's a distorted mirror full of women's images. We're encouraged to constantly compare ourselves to filtered/edited 2d images. If you feel low about yourself, chances are you'll feel worse seeing some of the images or comments online. It's also full of fads about how only certain types of exercise work for losing weight.

@ExhaustedFlamingo

I think, as the replies have proven so far, that there's no single reason why obesity is such an issue. I think it's a combination of everything that people have said here, and for each of us, one particular factor may be more prevalent than it is for someone else.

Emotional issues. Comfort eating. Boredom. The sense of "treating yourself".

Price. I can buy a microwave ready meal at a fraction of the cost it would take to buy the individual ingredients. Yes, some healthy food is cheaper but not always.

Time. Modern lives are busy - we grab processed snacks such as chocolate bars and crisps to keep us going. Little time to prep a meal on some days means if you haven't planned in advance, you're probably going to eat rubbish or get a takeaway.

Lack of exercise and movement. Everyday lives in general are far more sedentary. I'm scared of lifts and there's virtually no-one who takes the stairs with me.

Unhealthy food tastes nice. Sometimes it's no more complicated than this.

Alcohol. This piles on the pounds even if your diet is relatively healthy.

Poor health. Lack of available healthcare/long waiting lists often leaves people in chronic pain and without the capacity to manage exercise. This includes lack of access to mental health services.

Cost/shame. Gyms are expensive and committing to a contract may be daunting. If you're especially large you may feel embarrassed to go to a gym.

Safety. If gyms are a no-go, why not walk/jog? Again, potentially shame - but also safety. If you work then before/after work may be the only options when it's dark. As we know, safety is a very real issue for many women.

I could go on. Not all of the above will be true for everyone that's overweight. Some will apply more than others. But in varying degrees, those are just some of the reasons. In my experience, it's rarely down to poor knowledge - most people know the basics of what is healthy. The government seem to be taking the approach of just making surgery/unhealthy stuff more expensive - and that's never going to be a solution as cost is only one small element of it. A heavy-handed approach is just going to get people to rebel and make them defensive. A carrot rather than a stick is needed to help people make healthier choices.

Agree with all of these.... however these are all reasons for the actual act of eating. There are also psychological reasons for subconsciously wanting the extra weight on your body. Some of these are very related to feminist issues around being a woman...

For example, it can be a trauma reaction from sexual abuse, rape, harassment etc. Subconsciously, women feel safer being less sexualised and literally having an insulating layer between them and the world - or specifically, men's aggressive/intrusive sexual desires.

Psychoanalyst Susie Orbach's 'fat is a feminist issue' is a really interesting read, that explains a lot of this.

Obesity is indeed a complex issues. There can be many reasons - family genetics, upbringing, health conditions etc. I do think though OP that willpower and personal responsibility shouldn't be dismissed. In many situations it is a major contributor to obesity. In those cases - making the healthier choice is possible and not always more expensive. Apples, satsumas, bananas, yogurt say are much healthier alternatives to chocolate and crisps. Switch to brown bread instead of white bread. Switch to rice cakes instead of chocolate biscuits.. A poster at the top @crystal90567 mentioned pasta and Chinese stores fries and curries being unhealthy and we should go back to meat and 2 vege. But it depends on how those dishes are cooked! If you cook at home - Chinese stir fries use little oil and there are plenty of Chinese dishes which are steamed instead of deep fried. Similarly with pasta and curries. Takeaways are different because they are loaded with sugar and salt but this is across all cuisines. If the meat and 2 vege dish is cooked with tonnes of butter and cream, it's hardly healthy as well.

I disagree with fat shaming though - understanding and encouragement is more helpful in the long run.

Have you seen portion sizes comparison between now and 30-40 years ago? It's mind boggling and yeah. It reinforces the conclusion that lots of the issues are portion related when people talk about people size now and before.

Like Kitfish as a short person I gain weight on more than 1400 calories a day, but that's hard to remember in a house with two 6 ft 3 boys who can eat three times that amount. Calories in/ calories out has to be so precise, when gaining/ losing/ maintaining weight can all hang on just a larger chunk of cheese and a glass of wine that pushes you over the limit. Like others, I have had huge success with low carb and restricted hours of eating, but it is daunting to have to do this for ever! I found body positivity was actually motivating as it made me value myself at a higher weight and feel that I could lose weight to look after myself, to treat myself, rather than because I was disgusting or shameful. Self- hatred is not a good motivator, self- esteem is.

Theres so much that needs changing. Portion sizes in basically all cafes etc are too big, its changed our perception of what is a normal amount of food.

I would want any portion of food eg a packaged sandwich in pret or eat, a pizza, a burger etc to be labelled "large" if it contains more than 500 calories.

I'd also like more education on how your calories needs/metabolism change through adulthood. I spent my teenage years being told adult women need 2000 calories a day, this just isnt true for many women over 30 unless you are rather active. I find I slowly gain weight eating that amount, and am a healthier weight at more like 1600. Everyone I know agreed with this.

Exercise in schools should be daily as standard. I would like to see a half hour minimum built into the day even if it's a simple as kids walking around the school field or local neighbourhood. The habits you build in childhood/teens stay with you.

@rawlikesushi I gain at more than 1500 per day and I'm a size 12, height 5'9" and walk about 5,000 steps per day.

Kitfish, if anything over 1500 calories results in weight gain, the person must be very light already. To increase the number of calories they can eat, they could increase the amount of exercise they do.

You can't make a blanket statement like this as there's a huge range of metabolisms rate depending on your muscle mass, circulatory system, loads of things.

I m 35, 5ft 7 and weigh 11st, so not "very light". I used to weigh 10st. If I continually eat 2000 calories per day my weight just creeps up, slowly. It might only be in the order of about 3-4lb a year but means over a 5 year period, I've gained a stone. I'm not overweight now. But if I continue to eat more than about 1600 calories a day (1800 with exercise) I will be in 5 years time.

And it's not enough to assume you can just add in more exercise. Many working parents in particular just have little no time.

Nodont, yes someone of your height/weight needs about 1650 calories per day to maintain.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

And it's not enough to assume you can just add in more exercise. Many working parents in particular just have little no time.

These are the sorts of excuses that thin people don't use.

I'm not trying to be mean - I was obese for a long time, and used all of the same excuses.

A lot of this stuff is scientifically evidenced. Many women and men experience slowing metabolism during their 30s. You quite literally need less food than you might have done in your early 20s, to simply stay the same. Hormone levels also drop which can contribute to weight gain. This should be well publicised.

Rawlikesushi

I'm not overweight. I run 3 times a week but its isnt enough and seriously? Who are you to tell me I'm "making excuses"?

For me to fit in more exercise around my two young children and my full time/high stress job would mean a) sleeping less (not good for you long term and linked with weight gain) OR b) not having any time with my children.

It's not about "excuses". I enjoy exercise and would like to do more but my children need a mother and they are not at an age where they can join in sufficiently for it to be a workout for me.

There are calculators on NHS and BBC websites that tell you how many calories you need to maintain your weight, after you've entered weight, height, gender, age, activity level etc

Nodont, yes someone of your height/weight needs about 1650 calories per day to maintain

Exactly. Yet I am above average height and probably about average weight so unlikely to need less calories than average, so why are we telling women they need more calories than this?

We need the 2000 guidance for women revised to reflect what most women actually need, which is nearer 15-1600.

I think the breakdown of family and societal structure is a big cause. Lonely animals overeat and we’re animals so no surprises there

@changi that poster is really sobering but would be seen as far too harsh for here in the U.K., where the approach to everything is more “softly softly”.

Also, it says the upper limit of ideal BMI is 22.9! Isn't anything up to 25 considered ok here?

We need the 2000 guidance for women revised to reflect what most women actually need, which is nearer 15-1600.

Aren’t most people who are calorie counting aiming for less than that anyway? I don’t think the rest of us pay much attention.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Rawlikesushi

I'm not overweight. I run 3 times a week but its isnt enough and seriously? Who are you to tell me I'm "making excuses"?

For me to fit in more exercise around my two young children and my full time/high stress job would mean a) sleeping less (not good for you long term and linked with weight gain) OR b) not having any time with my children.

It's not about "excuses". I enjoy exercise and would like to do more but my children need a mother and they are not at an age where they can join in sufficiently for it to be a workout for me.

I wasn't referring to you specifically, but to the excuse 'no time to exercise.' Plenty of parents with big jobs who manage it.

Anyone saying that it's not their fault and there's nothing more they can do is making excuses imo. It's nothing to me if they do that. I don't care what size or shape someone is.

Also, it says the upper limit of ideal BMI is 22.9! Isn't anything up to 25 considered ok here?

The NHS says this...

Black, Asian and other minority ethnic groups have a higher risk of developing some long-term (chronic) conditions, such as type 2 diabetes.

These adults with a BMI of:

23 or more are at increased risk
27.5 or more are at high risk

Waist size is important too in terms of health risk.

Plenty of parents with big jobs who manage it.

The ones I know who do place time with their children at a lower priority to exercise/physique.

I can't/won't do that. I competed for my university in two sports, love swimming and cycling and did mainly sport based holidays for 10 years before having children, I really do wish I could do more but my children's needs come first. I'm not strapping my toddler inactive into a pram so that i can go running, we walk together so that she gets the exercise she needs. Yes it's not the workout I need to be thinner than I am but it's more important to me that she grows up fit and healthy not a fat kid strapped into a buggy so that mummy can do a pram workout.

Diet is more important.