Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

*I really don't understand the posters who are saying that most slim people work hard at it, are always controlling what they eat, keeping an eye on weight, whatever working hard at it means.

There must be a reason for the people who say it they they want to believe it. But what's the reason? I don't understand.

I find it a really discouraging message.*

Because this is what a lot of my slim friends tell me , I only have one friend who doesn't restrict what she eats much but she exercises a lot as enjoys it
My other slim friends all say they have to work at it , by watching what they eat , exercising etc etc
Maybe not every minute but they are certainly all mindful

@worriedatthemoment

*I really don't understand the posters who are saying that most slim people work hard at it, are always controlling what they eat, keeping an eye on weight, whatever working hard at it means.

There must be a reason for the people who say it they they want to believe it. But what's the reason? I don't understand.

I find it a really discouraging message.*

Because this is what a lot of my slim friends tell me , I only have one friend who doesn't restrict what she eats much but she exercises a lot as enjoys it
My other slim friends all say they have to work at it , by watching what they eat , exercising etc etc
Maybe not every minute but they are certainly all mindful

I am slim and have to work hard at it, every day. I track everything I eat on MFP and if I go over one day I make up for it the following one. Few, very few people, are slim naturally when they eat what they want.

One of my best mates seems to eat until full and then just stop and has always been this way (said it's not willpower, he just doesn't get any desire to eat more).

This is actually something my DH and I work on. And it's going ok.
Eat until first sign of full, not untill you can't move. It makes massive difference in the amount consumed. MASSIVE

The trick is not eating till full. Eating little and often.
Stomach stretching eating huge portions creates a bigger space to fill.
I don't have a big appetite my DP has.
I notice he'll leave his favourite part for last whereas I eat it first and usually leave some. His portion sizes are 4 times mine.
He is a ft taller and 9 stone heavier.
He has a desire for food. He genuinely isn't eating all day his portions and night sweets are the problem, doesn't drink either.

I have a huge appetite I know I do - if I eat out with friends I blatantly over order/over eat in comparison to them. If a friend tells me she’s having a galaxy chocolate bar and she’s thin I tell myself it’s ok for me to have chocolate that day. My great grandparents were very slim but not my grandparents - they were immigrants and not used to the diet of the West so ate to excess. I followed their behaviours. My grandmother was my main caregiver and she was a binge eater. There are major issues with sugar addiction and therefore diabetes in my family.

I also have an under-active thyroid which I tout as my excuse - but the bottom line is even without exercise if I switch to small portions of whole meal/whole grain carbs and cut out sugar I can lose weight.

Except I’m addicted to sugar have bizarre eating patterns - eat healthily during the day and at main meals then binge in the evenings.

Oh

Agree with @AwFeebs : the Andrew Jenkinson book is absolutely fascinating. Grounded in proper science as well. Really makes you think.

The problem begins very early on in the toddler/school years and then becomes more complex and a very difficult cycle to break. A number of factors are important including infant feeding, weaning, parental feeding behaviour, the food environment and lack of activity.

@firstimemamma

Healthy food is cheap though. I often buy my son a quick piece of fruit from the green grocers for 40p so cheaper than the 75p Easter egg.

I appreciate some crap food is cheap but this isn't always the case and a family splashing out on weekly takeaways isn't exactly saving money compared to cooking from scratch. Also obese families often get through lots of fizzy drinks as opposed to sticking with tap water. It's not always the cheaper option to eat unhealthily.

obese families often get through lots of fizzy drinks

What a disgraceful stereotype

I do think a lot starts in childhood and I do think there are a hell of a lot more fat primary age kids than there used to be. And I don't think it's all due to lack of exercise- lots of fat little dancers and footballers around.

It's food. It's the frequent takeaway or maccie ds. It's being unable to go for a walk without a bag full of snacks.

I've had arguments with friends and dh, both for different reasons, over my food rules, and it's basically this:

You don't have to eat everything on your plate, but you still get 'pudding' (kitkat/cake, whatever). Dh thinks this is wrong. I think his portions are clearly too big if kids can't finish.

Snacks are apple/banana. Cereal if you're starving at night. Do you really need to eat when there's, at most, about 6 hours since your last meal?

You ask, you don't just take. (Friend thinks this is out of order and controlling as kids should be able to eat what they want. I think that it's a pita if things vanish and you'd planned on them lasting all week. And I don't want them getting into habits of shovelling sugary crap in out of boredom)

Water is default drink. Fizzy pop at weekends.

@Piglet89

Agree with *@AwFeebs* : the Andrew Jenkinson book is absolutely fascinating. Grounded in proper science as well. Really makes you think.

I've just read it, as I saw it mentioned on another thread. Has anyone successfully managed to lower their set point using his strategies? It sets out doing things in a certain order, which I find confusing as I've always exercised, which is far down the list, and recently quit sugar. Just wondering if anyone has managed it!

I’ve always been one who just eats til I feel full, I like to eat as soon I’m hungry but stop at probably half of what a normal portion of restaurant food (well standard pub type) is. Then a couple of hours later have a couple of crackers and a piece of fruit, then maybe a piece of toast before bed or something. DP has been raised to clear a plate and he prefers to ‘save’ calories to smash huge meals (think entire dominos pizza, two sides and a garlic bread) . He doesn’t understand stopping when full and food is to be finished. He thinks I am very wasteful with food but the reality is that portions are too big in my opinion. If I’m starving I’ll polish off a big roast or full English or whatever especially if we have been very active. But normally a massive portion of food is just too much and I think a lot of people because of waste, ration mentality etc, are just conditioned to finish their plate

Aren’t most of us too old for this “ration mentality”?! I mean, technically, how many of us lived through the 50s?

@PrintempsAhoy I mean I’m in my twenties so definitely too young to have but wondering if it’s a sort of inter generational trauma type response . Like how kids of the kids living through today will probably still use hand gel and be mindful of spreading illness even though they didn’t live through the pandemic

I very rarely finish my food as I hate the feeling of being too full, I wouldn't say that's 'working' at staying slim, just a lifestyle choice/habit

I know people say that weight gain is all down to what you eat and exercise isn't important but I think I am the proof that that isn't the case.

I didn't use to do any exercise and therefore couldn't ever have a dessert in a restaurant, and if I looked at chocolate I'd put weight on.

Now I run 20-25 miles a week and try to do at least a 5k walk on the days I don't run, and I can (within reason) eat what I like. I am a size 8 and have a BMI of around 21.

So for me, the key is exercise and getting rid of the car culture. We'll always need cars, but Denmark and the Netherlands show that if you invest in the infrastructure people will use their bikes (a lot) more and their cars less (and the infrastructure can largely be used to walk on too).

I am not sure I agree with banning advertising for "junk" food though. Kids eat chocolate because it's nice, not because they've not seen enough advertising for broccoli.

Portions are probably too big in most restaurants but I polish them off quite happily ;)

I agree with the snack culture too - the idea that wherever you go you have to have snacks for the kids. Take a water bottle, but you don't need to take food when you'll be home again in half an hour.

I would absolutely love better public transport and bike lanes etc
I have a 45 minute drive to work and on public transport it’s 1 hour 20 plus a 10 minute walk one end and 20minute walk the other , it’s just not what I want to be doing to get to work at 8.30am, if I have to get the train it’s the 6.10am one, what a lot of wasted time , plus it costs more in tickets than In petrol - the train is often an expensive luxury to be honest, unless things are booked off peak, way in advance etc

Late to this thread but I have been a size 20/22 and got down to a 14. I'm now back up to a 16 so need to get on top of it again.

What motivated me to lose weight was the whole body positive movement. Its just a huge lie imo.

Some bloggers and instagrammers insist that you can be that big and still be fit,, healthy and that they eat nothing but vegetables. They post pictures of themselves in gym wear. As I said, its a lie. They are getting paid - they aren't really eating healthy or exercising.

A lot of them wear clothes that are too small for them. Either they are trying to emphasize "big is good" or they are trying to deny their true size.

Many of these instagrammers and bloggers have poor personal grooming too. Its a whole "I don't care what society thinks" full on attitude - so showing off hairy legs and arm pits and not wearing a bra.

If someone is truly 'body positive' then be honest about what your size is, what you eat and whether you really do exercise (a picture of you in gym wear is not going to convince me). Wear clothes that fit properly and attend to your personal grooming and hygiene.

Some of them complain they can't conceive or that they suffer from 'chronic pain' but can't figure out why!

I followed them for fashion advice but all it did was motivate me to diet. I might revisit some of them to motivate me to drop a dress size again.

@PrintempsAhoy

Aren’t most of us too old for this “ration mentality”?! I mean, technically, how many of us lived through the 50s?

You indirectly make a good point.

When I think about my WW2 born DPs and their friends, they are very good at telling themselves no and exercising self restraint. That was how they were brought up.

Society's ethos has changed, and we're now told that it's harmful to restrain our desires. Which makes it a bit more difficult to decide not to have an extra bag of crisps.

@fandabbydoozy

Late to this thread but I have been a size 20/22 and got down to a 14. I'm now back up to a 16 so need to get on top of it again.

What motivated me to lose weight was the whole body positive movement. Its just a huge lie imo.

Some bloggers and instagrammers insist that you can be that big and still be fit,, healthy and that they eat nothing but vegetables. They post pictures of themselves in gym wear. As I said, its a lie. They are getting paid - they aren't really eating healthy or exercising.

A lot of them wear clothes that are too small for them. Either they are trying to emphasize "big is good" or they are trying to deny their true size.

Many of these instagrammers and bloggers have poor personal grooming too. Its a whole "I don't care what society thinks" full on attitude - so showing off hairy legs and arm pits and not wearing a bra.

If someone is truly 'body positive' then be honest about what your size is, what you eat and whether you really do exercise (a picture of you in gym wear is not going to convince me). Wear clothes that fit properly and attend to your personal grooming and hygiene.

Some of them complain they can't conceive or that they suffer from 'chronic pain' but can't figure out why!

I followed them for fashion advice but all it did was motivate me to diet. I might revisit some of them to motivate me to drop a dress size again.

Sadly. Absolutely. There is just so many now.

I actually blocked a number because they were showing in the random videos under search (I love them lol) and I agree about the lies. (Most influancers lie tbf)

And I would dare any to post whole workout AND the end of it since apparently it's fine because they workout hours a day, but I would probably get massively banned...

And like you it motivated me in weight loss.

As an obese woman hear is my opinion.
#1 pressure, the 70's and 80's taught us that money was power. Money bought luxury goods and holidays. Fancy cars and clothes. So we went to work. We relied on convenience foods and deep fat fryers. We had no time to chop veg and slow cook meat.
#2 Time. As we worked time became a premium. Our time off was seen as our time, cocktails after work, fancy meals with partners because we never saw eachother of course we left the kids with babysitters and relished in grown up time.
#3 alcohol that bottle of wine in the fridge or gin with ice cold tonic empty calories we wont get back. More people drink more than 3 times a week meaning their calorific intake was like having 2 extra takaways a week.
#4 Takeaways. A trip to the local chinese resturant once or twice a year became weekly takaways full of MSG , trans fat and so much salt it appeared delicious and cheaper than cooking a joint of.meat with 3 veg and potatoes.
#5 the diet industry. From the invention of weight watchers/slimming world and all the other companies we are sold this lie that limiting our calorific intake eating low fat (high sugar) products we could lose weight and be healthy. This is the biggest lie ever sold. You may lose weight but you will put it back on and more of it too.
#6 quick fixes. Gastric bypass/bands/sleeves. No quick fix will be healthy. Most who have these will have some form of complication.

I hate the way I am. I have spent my whole life overweight and will die because of it.
Tax Fat, tax alcohol tax palm oil tax diet foods out of existence.

We will only lose this weight when proper food and drinks are cheap and freely available.
Feel free to slam my opinion. But as a paid up fatty I know.