Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

@firstimemamma

I appreciate some crap food is cheap but this isn't always the case and a family splashing out on weekly takeaways isn't exactly saving money compared to cooking from scratch. Also obese families often get through lots of fizzy drinks as opposed to sticking with tap water. It's not always the cheaper option to eat unhealthily....................
...........
You cant just presume this.
Me and partner are big.
He eats no chocolate / crisps / sweets or anything like that.

Neither of us drink fizzy drinks.
I drink water all the time and he has water with occasional sugar free cordial

We have a take away about every 2 months.
We have had 3 in lockdown.

Dont presume things about people that you have no idea about

I'm intrigued by these curries full of cream. Very few authentic recipes require cream. Lots of oil and maybe coconut and/or nuts but also tons of veg. I cook a curry dish 2 or 3 times a week and easily make a satisfying 600 calorie meal without skimping on anything.

I think this idea that only very low fat food can be consumed when you "diet" is as detrimental as the availability of high calorie "treat" foods. And bloody rice cakes! There's no wonder people yoyo.

I find the narrative "Why can't we have a sensible discussion without fat shaming" frustrating because the subtext feels very much like "Why can't we have a sensible discussion- without bringing personal choice and responsibility into it".

Saying 30% of overweight is toxic positivity because 70% are not.

There cant be an when stats like these are used perversely and there is delfection whereby slim people being unhealthy becomes the focus of a conversation about obesity.

Its frustrating that if a slim person raised the topic of obesity it would instantly be shut down as fat shaming. It feels like the conversation is more about "Why can't people accept obesity and not be negative." Which isn't a conversation.

@NiceGerbil

Just remembered the tube! Escalators in town only. You had to walk up miles of stairs.

Shit for people with mobility issues. A PITA for everyone else but a lot of exercise.

I grew up in London and can confirm that.

When any 'guide' to travelling to the airport from around London was published, the advice was, never pack more than you can carry up two flights of stairs.

I was a fat child, a fat teenager and I am a fat adult. In a family of slim people.

Sports, in fact any physical activity was mortifying.

I hate it. I hate the embarrassment, the comments and the fact that all I seem to obsess over is food.

Mental health is behind all of this.

Until Aldi showed up, I lived in a food desert, where a local corner shop was the only grocery store.

Shit food is still cheaper than the 'healthy' stuff around here, but at least we've got access to it now.

@An0n0n0n

If I'm honest about obesity, what grinds my gears is that there is a narrative that everyone should be celebrated no matter their size and you can be overweight and healthy and it overlooks the medical risks associated with it.

Nobody should be shamed or bullied for being fat and people should value themselves no matter their size.

But I don't think it obesity should be embraced and accepted as a modern standard.

I do think the government are between a rock and a hard place - you can't ban crisps, there are probably loads of legal barriers. You can't make them unaffordable for the same reasons. So how do you stop people buying and eating too many?

I do sympathise that for people in poverty it's an affordable way to treat the kids. A cheap way to fill up. And I do appreciate that there are societal barriers.

But one part I'll be honest in saying is that as a slim person, who has previously put on and then lost 3 stone (stress eating) it's simply not true that every obese person is a victim of circumstance and a narrative that slim people don't understand. It's hard to stay slim. You have to say no to delicious food and exercise frequently. It's annoying that there is a belief that slim people don't understand that it's hard to lose weight- I know it is hard but I also know that I work every day at maintaining a healthy weight, it doesn't just happen. So the issue of willpower probably comes up a lot because once weight is lost it is still an ongoing battle.

Totally agree with this and also its a myth that obese people are all victims. In my old office a group of women bullied anyone who was slim. Horrible , intrusive comments about size, sneering about lunch choices and food was stolen from the fridge. Team breakfasts they took over and others went without. I once made a big cake for another persons birthday and the remainder, well over half, was removed from the staff room and taken home , including the cake carrier it was in.

I did read somewhere taht that 10k steps everyone is now doing as an exercise and having as achievement is actually the bare minimum we should normally be doing as a normal part of a daily life, but as pp said, escalators, cars etc... So we don't.
I wish I had stepcounter in one if my waitressing jobs😂

I am obese. I have lost weight in the past and am again on this journey. The simple truth is I have a very stressful homelife, no emotional support from anyone and I therefore eat for comfort. Lack of practical support mean it is difficult to do more exercise too. This means the will power needed is pretty phenomenal. I am not saying it isn't possible but I recognise now that my weight is very much part of my personal circumstances.

@JeffVaderneedsatray Have you tried cutting down on processed foods? I've found since I cut them out that things like vegetables taste much sweeter and satisfy the urge for a sweet taste.

Totally agree with you about bread - it is a gateway to over-eating. I'm avoiding it altogether now, but I weaned myself off it by storing it in the freezer, so if I wanted a slice I had to defrost it first.

I think it's interesting that people have an understanding of and sympathy for eating disorders if they make you too thin but not if they make you too fat.

I've just finished "Why we eat (too much)" by Dr Andrew Jenkinson (it was recommended on another thread) it is an utter eye-opener as to why it is so hard to just say no to stuff. Once you've been overweight once and forced your weight back down with restricted calories your body is basically fighting to get you back to your previous, heavier weight. DH and I know we need to make changes and this has really helped me realise that I need to reframe what we eat and make some major changes in order to get the weight off. It will take a couple of years I imagine but there is so much logic and research in the book it's hard to deny. He's a bariatric surgeon so know his stuff.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0241400538/ref=ppxyoodtbbasintitleeo00s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

@Templetrees, I do feel nervous joining in a discussion about obesity as I'm slim and have been underweight for a lot of my life, when I get stressed I lose my appetite and have to force food down, it's horrible.

My old workplace was very similar to what you describe, constant jibing comments about my weight and appearance from the other women. Then comments about my lunch most days so I stopped eating in the communal kitchen. Everyone always on some juicing/low carb type diet. It got so bad I ended up speaking to the managing director about it, just about the attitude to food, weight and body image in general. She agreed with me and helped me put a stop to it.

I know of several people who have died from obesity related complications and the "support" they received from healthcare was awful. They were all chronically lonely and used food as a comfort/escape.

Thanks Pictish, that was interesting.

Another poster made the comment about 'convenience' food being blamed for people being overweight- I don't think that's entirely true, I very rarely eat convenience food but cooking from scratch doesn't necessarily mean food is healthier.

In my personal situation I believe I am overweight due to lack of willpower, eating when I'm not hungry and the 'enjoyment' of eating - I had a breakfast of two poached eggs on buttered toast today (one egg on un-buttered toast would have been fine - but not as tasty!). Two and half hours later I am enjoying a hot cross bun with my coffee - I am not hungry, but just fancied the idea of a hot cross bun. Then I will have homemade soup and homemade garlic bread for lunch full of butter and cream and roast pork meal tonight - with wine. So yes, all 'home made' (apart from the hot cross bun) and enjoyable but not exactly 'healthy'.

There is much more of a snacking culture these days, I can remember at my school in the early 1970s we were forbidden to eat in the street (and we all obeyed rules!), that has stayed with my life, I don't even drink a coffee 'on the go' but can you imagine school children these days listening to that rule?!

I am personally guilty of snacking but there is just so much of it - the constant snacks that people take for their children even if they are just out for an hour.

I read an article about the obesity crisis I think by Caitlin moran where she talked about how comfort food is the emotional support many of us turn too. Cheap, easy to access, no hangover or illegal - food is there! If we are all a bit sadder, lonelier or poorer then some cake, chocolate etc is a quick boost.

I agree with this. It's the carer's disease. If you spend your life looking after others you can't afford a drug or alcohol addiction, but you can use food.

More generally I am partly in the "willpower" camp and I believe in personal responsibility. I also don't think the (very sad) traumatic experiences people have written about here are totally relevant when so much of the population is overweight. I was never obese but was overweight and lost 25kg over a year, and have kept it off. But I'd argue that willpower is a finite thing -

If you work a crappy job and expend all your energy doing it just to keep your head above water with little hope of your circumstances improving, that might reasonably sap your willpower.

If you live in a "food desert".

If you've spent the morning trying to make £30 stretch to a weekly shop and feel bad that you can't buy your kid x thing he wants for his birthday.

If you're exhausted and just want to get something on the table quickly that you know everyone will eat.

If you live somewhere unsafe/with limited access to green spaces let alone a pool or gym.

If you've had a shit day, with another shit day coming tomorrow and just want something nice/comforting/familiar.

If you feel unwell but keep getting fobbed off by your GP and aren't sure what to do next.

... etc etc.

I don't think any of these things on their own are dealbreakers, but I think a lot of people are using up quite a lot of their willpower just getting through the day, and there is plenty that the gov't could do to nudge people in a different direction. It'd be to the benefit of the NHS, though of course if you're heading in the direction of US-style healthcare then perhaps lots of ill people aren't such a bad thing eh?

FWIW I run a food bank and given the choice people do broadly make healthy choices when they come to us. We operate supermarket-style and people are delighted with bananas, apples etc. Last week we had both pineapples and asparagus in (surplus from a supermarket) - all went.

@NiceGerbil

We get takeaways twice a week and apart from DH are all slim.

A piece of fruit? Sugar, water and murder on the teeth on the whole...

I mean give your kid fruit sounds nice. My point is, nothing is straightforward when you get into the nitty gritty.

I think it is quite straightforward that fruit is better to eat than takeaways. Just because you're slim doesn't mean you're healthy. So long as you have a good brushing routine teeth will be fine. What about all the crap that's in takeaways that can damage your teeth?

You can't just claim that fruit is bad for your teeth that's ridiculous.

What about all the crap that's in takeaways that can damage your teeth?

What are you thinking of?

@An0n0n0n obesity is a chronic, progressive disease but we're very reluctant to accept this as a society. Personal choice and responsibility will play a role in moulding the obesogenic environment but for some people, biological, pathological and genetic factors will be much stronger influencers of weight. I believe that prevention initiatives are important, but intervention and treatment are equally so for people with obesity, as they are for any other chronic condition.

The majority of participants on My 600-lb Life were molested as kids and had major family turmoil. It's clear they started eating to fill some sort of emotional void and it crossed over to full blown addiction.

Oh and they all have dogs. I always laugh and think of that when people recommend getting a dog to lose weight because it forces them to 'walk for miles'. Not always!

@maplemay11. I agree with all of that. But without legislating to ban all junk food, something I think we can all agree would be wrong for many reasons, willpower/personal responsibility shouldn't be dirty "fat shaming" words that can't be used in a conversation and should be seen as a useful tool in the box.

It is a complex situation and needs a many pronged approach. But culture is calling to normalise obesity and people derailing useful conversations by saying that these are fat shaming phrases that ignore root causes and trauma etc isn't helpful to anyone, especially not the people and their families who will suffer the most from obesity. (Not saying you have said that)

My dad died recently and i have been looking at photos of him during the 80's. Growing up, I thought of him as fat. I've been looking at these photos and he wasn't fat at all. Well built but not fat by today's standards at all.

The biggest issue is clearly the link with financial deprivation but it's not that healthy food is expensive. It's not. A pack of carrots are about 20p. It's also not about education as we are all bombarded about healthy choices. I think it's down to accessibility. It's cheap, normalised and everywhere. Fast food leads to lazy decisions. Just grab a burger rather than go home and make something. Yes I'll go large as it's good value. Meanwhile kids don't go out on their own so are at home constantly nagging for snacks.

My local Asda is filled with trolleys piled high with massive multipacks of Crisps and processed food pushed around by enormous people who park in a disabled spot and then shuffle slowly around despite being young. Why is this? I'm not shaming at all but this is a tragedy. At the park yesterday girls of 7 and 8 who look developed followed around by parents who are eating constantly whilst drinking coffee milkshakes. I don't allow my children to eat on the street but this idea that we need constant refuelling had normalised overeating. Cheap access to unhealthy food is a tragedy formany families who use food as a treat.

I'm overweight by the way.

My personal opinion is that women smoked, as did most of the population in the 60s and 70s.

I can remember women having a cup of tea and a cigarette, never a biscuit or cake. Also a lot more walking and very few cars.

It’s just my personal observation.

It wasn’t all home cooked dinners and cooking from scratch.

I really believe upbringing and family norms around food is so important. My mum is a healthy weight, as was her mum, as I am and my DD. I brought my DD up with home cooked meals, lots of fruit, veg and normal portion sizes. We still had takeaways, sweets, chocolate, actually no food was off limit. We also walked loads and I’m a runner and love weight lifting, which was part of my everyday life, which my DD saw as normal. Most importantly we had no scales and diet was not a word used.

We seem to understand so much more about food and what we should eat but our population are becoming bigger. It is a massive psychological issue.

@Stratfordplace

My personal opinion is that women smoked, as did most of the population in the 60s and 70s. I can remember women having a cup of tea and a cigarette, never a biscuit or cake. Also a lot more walking and very few cars.

It’s just my personal observation.

It wasn’t all home cooked dinners and cooking from scratch.

Yes. And nicotine is a known appetite suppressant.

@Stratfordplace

My personal opinion is that women smoked, as did most of the population in the 60s and 70s. I can remember women having a cup of tea and a cigarette, never a biscuit or cake. Also a lot more walking and very few cars.

It’s just my personal observation.

It wasn’t all home cooked dinners and cooking from scratch.

I got to morbid obesity while smoking. It's not 100%.

Actually. I know quite a few fat smoker come to think of it.

Orangejuicer. I too have pcos. You need to find the right diet and the weight will come off. The insulin resistance makes it harder but a low carb diet is hugely helpful with this. I followed the blood sugar diet and lost 4 stone in 6 months without too much trouble. Weight watchers, calories controlled etc do nothing for me. I have to quit sugar entirely. I still have some to lose but my other pcos symptoms reduced as I lost weight.