Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

I’m 29, I’m 21 stone .

I gained weight age 6 when my dad finally left and we were taken out of foster care and I became my mentally ill mums full time carer . She would tell me about how she was raped and stuff and I couldn’t cope with what I was hearing so I ate : and ate; and ate ....

I was fat shamed repeatedly as a child and adult and laughed at openly by family . As a teen I had food and drink thrown at me at school - Diet Coke poured down my hair, milkshake, potato; flour and once memorably squirty cream was sprayed all over me . My gran used to hide food from me - if I came to visit her she’d make all sorts of comments . Told me I was it was just as well when diagnosed PCOS as I’d ruin any child’s life I gave birth to and no sensible man would want to marry me anyway .

None of that make me skinny .

Instead I ended up a very depressed, angry, hurting adult who still eats to bury my feelings ... it’s like an addiction - I’ve been addicted to codeine and hell I’ve beaten that but food is much harder, you can’t not eat like I can just not take codeine !

I’ve lost weight twice . Both times it was because I felt safe, in control, loved, supported and I had someone to turn to for consistency, someone I could always rely on to be there and to be ‘safe ‘ iyswim .

I’m - very slowly - learning to love myself and to realise I have wants, needs, aspirations and qualities like anyone else but I’m nearly thirty .

I genuinely think if I’d been supported back when I was so small I’d not have gained weight .

I don’t think being 21 stone comes simply from not eating and not moving, there’s so much more behind it ... But if you ask NHS for help it’s just my GP ringing and basically saying she’s not interested . I’ve finally, finally got a good counsellor who’s trying to help me, but again - I’m 29, it shouldn’t take so long !

There are other things that could have helped like if I’d been supported to exercise in a way that suited me - and the way we almost worship food isn’t helpful at all - but I genuinely think a lot of it comes back to mental health .

Whose obesity would you like to discuss and why?

@amysteryforsaturday that is amazing, and heartbreaking. I hope you find fulfilment. The weight loss is by the by.
I feel the lack of compassion by others is astounding. If someone is cutting themselves no one says 'well if they just could put down the blade now and again, go for a run etc, the rest of us have willpower for gods sake!' If someone had shown me acceptance and made me love myself at size 12 I never would have got to a size 20.

I totally agree, it’s such a complex condition. If only it was as simple as eating a bit less and moving a bit more. No one really chooses to be over weight it’s so very complex and I think the huge misunderstandings that there are regarding obesity are also part of the problem as the solution is always seen to be a diet of some kind. For anyone struggling with their weight I’d hugely recommend looking up Shazroo Izadi who wrote the Last Diet, it is anything but a diet book. She is a psychologist who specialises in addiction and struggled hugely with her own weight and started to apply the same methods she used with her patients with drug and alcohol addictions to weight management. Reading her books has helped to give me a much better understanding of my own struggles with my weight and I have the best handle I’ve ever had on my eating so much of her method centres on being kind to yourself and having compassion for yourself too. Dr Chatterjee is another great source of information too with a similar take.

I also agree with you re the accessibility of cheap sugary food as well.

Rather than discuss an individual's obesity, which I find personal and intrusive, wouldn't it be better to say, ok it exists, no blaming tolerated, now what are we going to do about it? As a community, or as individuals?

I'd start by ensuring all senior schools offered a non competitive option for PE. No picking teams, no coming first or last.

'I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, '

I don't agree tbh.

Going back to addiction, there's very little interest care or understanding in society which is reflected on MN.

Obesity, as everything else. Is a societal issue.

It's easier for people to avoid thinking about that with the old personal choice thing.

Healthy food is cheap though. I often buy my son a quick piece of fruit from the green grocers for 40p so cheaper than the 75p Easter egg.

I appreciate some crap food is cheap but this isn't always the case and a family splashing out on weekly takeaways isn't exactly saving money compared to cooking from scratch. Also obese families often get through lots of fizzy drinks as opposed to sticking with tap water. It's not always the cheaper option to eat unhealthily.

Mint it needs massive societal change.

We've been to lots of countries in Europe where physical fitness is seen as normal, desirable. Easy. Walking etc. Cycling not as Lycra but just pooling about. Just s different attitude.

I think that. We're just basic monkeys in the end. We're really well evolved to seek max calories and rest until work needed.

Everyone was slimmer when I grew up in the 80s. We ate loads of sugar though. Difference was day to day life had more movement. And the food manufacturers hadn't yet realised the magic combo of fat, salt and sugar to make a human brain go mmmmm. Even if there's no nutrition.

Changing work practices, the ubiquity of cars, and cheap dodgy food everywhere. Areas built with no nice places to walk or go.

I like swimming. After we had the Olympics they said swimming for all. Bollocks. Our council stuff is gym style. All sign up for this that monthly. When you find the one off prices it's £££ for a family of 4.

If you want a fit healthy population making sure there's access to.. stuff. Affordable or free. If it's there people will go.

I also think there's a genetic component. ( My whole family slim, DH whole family not).

And our society is just very fragmented. There's this thing where lots of people seem to get something out of saying well at least I'm better than that. That's not good.

Final thought. A woman can be terribly unhealthy and slim. Alcoholic, drug addicted, anorexic etc. And the people who don't know her think she looks great!

So that's not a healthy thing in society either.

firsttimemamma the price of food thing is always used, that bad food is cheaper but it really isn't. I can get half a kilo of satsumas for that 75p.
A supermarket might do well to offer a 'healthy treat of the week' maybe a tub of tropical fruit salad for 40p. Or a cheese and nut pot. Make it an easy choice and more people will take it.

And interestingly.

Where did the 'fat cat' city man image go?

An obese man in a suit. Powerful.

Other points in the past being overweight has been in fashion.

It's very linked to wealth.

We get takeaways twice a week and apart from DH are all slim.

A piece of fruit? Sugar, water and murder on the teeth on the whole...

I mean give your kid fruit sounds nice. My point is, nothing is straightforward when you get into the nitty gritty.

I can't entirely agree with you on this. The "healthy food is more expensive" argument is simply not true and it is a dangerous myth that we need to stop propagating. We're not being kind by giving people an excuse and letting them give up. 75p will buy you an Easter egg, but it could also buy you 5 bananas or a couple of apples or a large pot of yoghurt or the the correct proportion of the ingredients needed to make rice pudding and so on. Blueberries are a misdirection. Soft fruit will always be expensive. It's also not true that healthier food is necessarily more time consuming to make. My busy family didn't have processed food growing up, unless a certain fussy friend came round, precisely because it is more expensive and we just couldn't afford it.

I do completely agree with you that there does need to be more support available and that a happier frame of mind is very important to making what might seem like daunting choices. Easily accessible mental health support, and reinvigorating HE in schools so that children learn proper budgeting and seasonally appropriate cooking would be the way forward.

What's the fixation with Easter eggs?

Some people have very limited cooking facilities.

Bananas are well better than chips (?) but rammed full of sugar and carbs.

I know obese people who are well able to cook etc and have good incomes and aren't gorging on Easter eggs..
My kids get chocolate every day and are very slim..

Tricky innit.

'children learn proper budgeting and seasonally appropriate cooking would be the way forward.'

The fixation with home cooking is a misdirection as well.

When I was in Singapore, most people buy breakfast lunch and dinner from outside the home. V slender population.

?!?!

When I was in Singapore, most people buy breakfast lunch and dinner from outside the home. V slender population.

What was the food they were buying like (not being argumentative, genuinely interested)?

I think where the challenge lies is in a lack of empathy. I actually agree it boils down to will power, but it's understanding the why behind becoming obese.

I am obese and on a weight loss journey. I'm down 35 kilos so far with 31 kilos to go. I'm a classic emotional eater who uses food to escape or hide. I have some trauma in my history which I have never dealt with until late last year.

Sometime I wonder why people can empathise with drug addicts and alcoholics but not obese people.

Late last year I sought therapy to work through my history, and since that date my weight loss has been incredibly successful with no binging episodes. There are a number of mental health reasons to why to ate myself to my former size rather than just not being able to stop eating easily by choice.

This is the 5th month of weekly appointments; hoping to drop down to fortnightly next month. Ultimate goal is to reach the maintain phase of just checking in if I need it.

@NiceGerbil Do they really? That is so interesting. I wonder why they don’t like to cook?

All sorts!

It was really salty to my tongue as well.

Pastries noodles curries I mean everything

Cooking at home is obsessed over in the UK. Like the be all and end all.

I grew up with home cooking. Pastry a lot. Always puddings. Sweet shop etc

More calories consumed in the 70s but thinner. Why? More manual jobs. Less cars. Shopping was carried and good prepped. Work. Walking to bus stop etc.

My first office job. 3 flights up. No lift. Had to carry big bundles of paper around. Etc.

People had to expend more energy just in daily life. I really think that's a big part of it

I self medicate with food because I’m unhappy. I doubt that previous generations were unhappy in the same sort of way. People were more likely to be with groups of friends and family, with productive work and a place in life, and not so much feeling hard done by. Now we have isolation, unemployment, and the super rich and super beautiful being rubbed in our faces every five minutes.

Just remembered the tube! Escalators in town only. You had to walk up miles of stairs.

Shit for people with mobility issues. A PITA for everyone else but a lot of exercise.

Don't like to cook shows a cultural norm.

Why would you if it was warm out all the time and you could get yummy fresh cooked food out?

All through time, people have wanted to feel that they are better than someone else. Looking down on someone used to be connected with race,or religion, but of course those things are taboo now. So who can we all pick on, bully and shame ? Oh yes, fat people. It's their fault so it's a win for the bullies .

I'm a size 24 , and I do get frustrated by the health comments that people like to send my way. When I was younger I was told " you'll never get pregnant unless you lose weight" but I got pregnant and had my two children with no problems.

Later I was told I'd get diabetes or have a heart attack if I didn't lose weight - nope that hasn't happened, and all is well in that department at age 63. My skinny ex husband has both those problems , oh dear me.

I'm not saying my life is perfect - sure I'd like to be slimmer , I've even had bariatric surgery but it didn't work and I'm back to being the big girl. But I'm living a great life, have a fab husband who loves every bit of me, enjoying every day, wear nice clothes and never feel like a frump. Have all the medical checks every year and doc says " keep doing what you're doing, it's all good".

I look at old photographs of our family, going back to the 1920's, and every person is much the same shape. Genetics obviously has an impact on body shape , imho. They all lived to a good age so it didn't seem to have a detrimental effect on them.

I'd say, live your life to the fullest and don't let the bullies get you down.

@TheNestedIf

When I was in Singapore, most people buy breakfast lunch and dinner from outside the home. V slender population.

What was the food they were buying like (not being argumentative, genuinely interested)?

The vast majority of Singaporeans ( 80'%) live in government-subsidised flats - row upon row of huge high-rise blocks. The flats are modest in size and have very small kitchens .

When I was there, I was told that most locals like to eat out just to get out of the house. Street food is cheap and wonderfully tasty, so it's no wonder they take that option. They can take the lift downstairs, walk outside and there will be multiple street-food stalls right there. Buy something nice to eat, and sit in the balmy air enjoying your dinner .

Interesting about Singapore.

I've just had a think about the cooked food I can buy outside of my flat within an accessible radius. The majority of outlets sell deep fried and/or carb heavy stuff, unless you want to go for a sit down meal or buy from the expensive place that lets you finish off cooking the meal at home. There may be more restaurants doing takeaway since COVID.

Realistically, businesses aren't going to stop cooking unhealthy food if that's what enough people enjoy and buy. If you're content with your weight, I don't think it's fair to be denied that choice. That's why I think people have to own their choices around food. The least we can do is make sure people have the tools and skills to do that. If you are taught HE at school and then leave and never want to cook again, not a problem. That's not much different to me leaving school and not wanting to engage with The Catcher In The Rye or ox-bow lakes ever again.

Off to bed now, but its been nice talking to you people.

I think, as the replies have proven so far, that there's no single reason why obesity is such an issue. I think it's a combination of everything that people have said here, and for each of us, one particular factor may be more prevalent than it is for someone else.

Emotional issues. Comfort eating. Boredom. The sense of "treating yourself".

Price. I can buy a microwave ready meal at a fraction of the cost it would take to buy the individual ingredients. Yes, some healthy food is cheaper but not always.

Time. Modern lives are busy - we grab processed snacks such as chocolate bars and crisps to keep us going. Little time to prep a meal on some days means if you haven't planned in advance, you're probably going to eat rubbish or get a takeaway.

Lack of exercise and movement. Everyday lives in general are far more sedentary. I'm scared of lifts and there's virtually no-one who takes the stairs with me.

Unhealthy food tastes nice. Sometimes it's no more complicated than this.

Alcohol. This piles on the pounds even if your diet is relatively healthy.

Poor health. Lack of available healthcare/long waiting lists often leaves people in chronic pain and without the capacity to manage exercise. This includes lack of access to mental health services.

Cost/shame. Gyms are expensive and committing to a contract may be daunting. If you're especially large you may feel embarrassed to go to a gym.

Safety. If gyms are a no-go, why not walk/jog? Again, potentially shame - but also safety. If you work then before/after work may be the only options when it's dark. As we know, safety is a very real issue for many women.

I could go on. Not all of the above will be true for everyone that's overweight. Some will apply more than others. But in varying degrees, those are just some of the reasons. In my experience, it's rarely down to poor knowledge - most people know the basics of what is healthy. The government seem to be taking the approach of just making surgery/unhealthy stuff more expensive - and that's never going to be a solution as cost is only one small element of it. A heavy-handed approach is just going to get people to rebel and make them defensive. A carrot rather than a stick is needed to help people make healthier choices.