Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

@pictish

A fast food place at every conjecture, with a drive thru no less...and operating 24 hours some of them. Like it’s an essential service? That’s mad...but it completely normalises eating crap on the go at all hours of the day. Who ever wished for McDonalds to be in close proximity around the clock? Why are they there?

I agree with this. Sometimes it seems as though there's been a planning directive - every spare piece of land near the main road must be filled ASAP with a drive-thru takeaway.

The government complain about obesity but they don't seem to do anything to stop these places springing up.

Of course it's down to individuals to use them or not and they are not the only driver of obesity (I have never been to a drive-thru but gained weight through other types of unhealthy eating) but having them everywhere normalises them as part of an everyday diet and food like this shouldn't be something you're having every week.

I'm going to give you a name. It's a rising name who is tackling the misconceptions of food and how and what we eat as the root causes of weight gain. It is not our fault, at all, it's down to the food that is promoted by food industry and they way and times (also food industry promotion) we eat this food that causes havoc.

This is why there is so much obesity in the western world. It's not down to will power at all. We are not weak! We are conditioned to believe the myths we have been taught. The damage this does is a real eye opener.

Tim Spector

@pictish

Ragwort - like you I have had a lifelong weight issue. I was a chubby kid, became a fat teen and went on to be an increasingly obese adult. I had always loathed my appearance and got into a perpetual vicious cycle of eating and hating that I couldn’t seem to break out of. As I grew older (I’m 45 now) I started to become more anxious about my health. When my son was diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum, it had a very sobering effect on me. I considered that he may well need me for that bit longer than the other two (I have three children) and I wondered what use would I be to him if I had a heart attack at 55 because I was so overweight? I mulled that over and resolved to do something about it. So in the end, it wasn’t for looks or even for myself that I lost weight. It was for my health and for the sake of my son.

What an inspiring post. Amazing step to take for your DS and it can't have been easy. 💐

And re strawberries, raspberries and blueberries😳
Erm. Growing it costs a lot to grow them especially outside of season. We can't just pick one of the most expensive fruits and compare it to super cheap easily mass produced chocolate...
I am not on poverty line and even I don't buy these!

It's not down to will power at all

This is more correctly put as 'it's not always just down to willpower'. It is for some people.

Trying to blame the food industry as the only cause of obesity is problematic.

A good diet (especially for your children) is just a basic component of being a responsible person. Like washing your clothes, paying your council tax and putting your bins out. We are too quick to make excuses; it’s never been easier to stock up on healthy ready meals or quick snacks - heck, even beans on brown toast is a healthy snack and cost pennies. As lockdown has shown, it’s also easier to exercise at home. Yes, many people do find it easier as they aren’t commuting, so I agree that there are societal issues.

Most Far East cultures are what we would call fat shaming - they make no bones about how unacceptable being fat is. Japan is pretty much the epitome of long working hours, convenience food culture and yet they are one of the thinnest nations out there....

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants they also have pretty high rates for suicide too. Is that to be aspired too?

*to

Thank you Earrings - to get to that sober stage of realisation, no...it wasn’t easy, it was the hardest thing to face in the world. Once I had resolved myself to do something about it however, it was surprisingly easy. I knew what I had to do and I was driven to do it.
I knew it would take a long time to lose what I needed to. I knew it was asking a complete change of lifestyle from me on a permanent basis. I married myself to it, just as anyone who follows a specified diet does, whether through medical necessity (coeliac disease) or personal choice (vegetarian).

@pictish

A fast food place at every conjecture, with a drive thru no less...and operating 24 hours some of them. Like it’s an essential service? That’s mad...but it completely normalises eating crap on the go at all hours of the day. Who ever wished for McDonalds to be in close proximity around the clock? Why are they there?

Made me laugh out loud and so true.

Balloon no, it’s not. What does that have to do with obesity?

There are plenty of things we could learn from them- and it goes both ways.

I don't think it is possible to have a sensible conversation without 'shaming' - because whenever someone dares to mention there may be an element of self control, choices etc it is shouted down as shaming.

It is impossible to have a sensible, well-rounded conversation about obesity without these things also being discussed as they are massive factors in obesity. If they weren't and it was all food manufacturing and the cost of fruit then everyone would be obese, but they're not.

You can't have a sensible discussion but exclude or shout down anyone who doesn't quite agree with your point.

You can't have a sensible discussion whilst also ignoring a huge point in the discussion. Not every obese person has binge eating disorder or trauma. Overweight people do manage to lose weight and keep it off. I have done it, though I wasn't obese just 'overweight'.

‘Fat cat’ assumes money = ability to buy enough food to become overweight. This was true; as a child in the 60s with broke parents portions were small and snacks non-existent. Ready meals as far as they existed were out of our budget.

But that simply isn’t true now. Processed and high carb/sugar food can be much cheaper and a much smaller percentage of our spending. And is so much more available. It’s addictive and so easy to eat - you don’t have to spend ages prepping it to eat so it can be eaten on the first twinge of the uncomfortable feeling of being hungry.

We did eat puddings but there wasn’t a between meals option.

And smoking - such a good point. People smoked rather than ate their issues so much more. I have aunts horrified at fat people - these are aunts who have puffed their way through adulthood, around their children, as did my fat phobic grandmother.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

And re strawberries, raspberries and blueberries😳 Erm. Growing it costs a lot to grow them especially outside of season. We can't just pick one of the most expensive fruits and compare it to super cheap easily mass produced chocolate... I am not on poverty line and even I don't buy these!

The fact that floored me about fruit is that growers have bred sweeter and sweeter strawberries etc. to match the tastebuds of a population increasingly addicted to sugar. So the "paleo" diet of fruits and vegetables is a world away from the "natural" diet of our ancestors. Better than KFC and Cadbury's, but still high sugar! There's nowhere safe from sugar.

Such an interesting thread. I read an article about the obesity crisis I think by Caitlin moran where she talked about how comfort food is the emotional support many of us turn too. Cheap, easy to access, no hangover or illegal - food is there! If we are all a bit sadder, lonelier or poorer then some cake, chocolate etc is a quick boost.

It is a vicious cycle and hard to break when so linked to mental health. Slow, steady suicide almost in the most unobtrusive and dismissed way for wider society.

Thank you for your post OP. The way obesity is approached in the country is shameful and does nothing to look at the emotional aspect of the problem. People with anorexia are seen as ill but people who are obese are seen as fat/lazy. Parents are shamed for their children being overweight by health professionals and so it goes on. The middle class obsession with healthy food only fuels the problem, having such an intense emotional attachment to food is only going to cause problems. Stop labelling food as "bad" and "good", stop naming certain foods as treats or rewards, have a range of snacks at home, don't get too worked up if your child eats something "unhealthy", everything in moderation. I'm about to do some research with a colleague into the approach to childhood obesity and the causes. Obesity is a complex problem with complex aetiology. Physical, genetic, psychological, social and cultural. And diets don't work!!!!

You’re right shaming people won’t make them thin but there is such a thing as personal accountability. I’ve been rewatching secret eaters recently and there is so much self deception when it comes to estimating the calories in meals. Portion sizes in restaurants / cafes / takeaways are huge and people eat out a lot (not referring to lockdown obviously). When I moved to Aus I was amazed at how body conscious most sydney siders are and I think it’s party because of the weather (easier to get out and exercise) and the climate. I know when I lived in London I could dress really well for my shape and hide any bits I didn’t like with nice coats, boots, jeans etc. It’s just too hot here and the fear I had when looking at holiday pics at home after a 2 week trip is basically every weekend in the mirror prepping to go for a swim at the beach for 7-8 months of the year. That said I’m still a size bigger than I’d like because I can’t resist temptation and my partner buys snacks all the time.

@Blueskydrink

Such an interesting thread. I read an article about the obesity crisis I think by Caitlin moran where she talked about how comfort food is the emotional support many of us turn too. Cheap, easy to access, no hangover or illegal - food is there! If we are all a bit sadder, lonelier or poorer then some cake, chocolate etc is a quick boost.

It is a vicious cycle and hard to break when so linked to mental health. Slow, steady suicide almost in the most unobtrusive and dismissed way for wider society.

Brilliant post. The people I know who are morbidly obese are very lonely. They are lovely people but have always struggled in some way. Eating is a form of emotional support that fills the void but then they feel disgusted and ashamed and so the cycle perpetuates itself.

I recommend reading the Diet Myth by Tim Spector. His twin study and why some pairs of twins with the same upbringing and diet are totally different weights, despite the heavier one being much more sporty. Down to genes which affect your gut biome apparently. So much interesting research going into gut bacteria and how it has changed in diversity from the 80s onwards which was when the obesity epidemic started.

I think we do have to come back to willpower though and accept it will always be required. Unless all fast food and unhealthy food is banned. Which would never be possible or accepted.

We can't rely on gov to regulate to the extremes necessary to effect significant change. And we wouldn't want to. Do we really want a government to have the level of power needed to make such significant regulations? And surely fast/junk food industry would band together and be able to afford significantly more for legal challenges to overcome such regulations anyway.

I'm not convinced the focus on exercise is right either. I'm fairly active. I run, do weights when the gym is open etc. But I only lose weight when I stop eating the nice things.

3x5k runs per week will only burn about 800calories. A glass of wine is 250. I cancel out all my exercise in a Friday night.

I think people think exercise will magically solve everything. I do think pe in schools need overhauling though. If you're an uncoordinated teen, team games are hell on earth. Most of my pe years were spent standing on the yard, waiting for a sniff of a hockey or netball to come near me. As an adult, I did c25 and took off from there. As a kid, 2 weeks of x country every year was torture.

Dazzle - I see some of the logic in what you're saying but I have PCOS which is proven to make weight loss harder because of the way the body processes insulin. Just putting it down to people being irresponsible, when I have a genetic condition
that I have little control over, is rather simplistic and sadly indicative of many people's views.

One of the most interesting things I found this week was that I had to do a big presentation on zoom .

Fifteen clients, ten colleagues, two senior managers .

I did it without a problem, had a great time and got high praise from management .

All because they couldn’t see me - in rl I hardly leave the house as I’m scared I’m being judged every step . I’m crippilingy lonely, cried and cried after that presentation because I thought; oh this is what it’s like to feel happy and confident .

I asked my GP if she could point Me in the right direction re exercise (at 21 stone) and she suggested I start jogging and long distance walking . Have tried the latter (I can’t run) and now my knees are fucked . It would be great if there was a good, accessible, holistic service for morbid obesity - NHS don’t give a shit, but more than happy to remind you how far you are - just don’t want to help you lose (once you’re morbidly obese - there’s no support or guidance or advice) .

The fact about shaming is it's just one, not very intelligent way of addressing something which could be done more effectively a million other ways. I had a BMI of 36 when I had my daughter, my midwife was also overweight. She had to go through all this information and made me keep a food diary (which she said was her most unusual as I worked in a health food shop at the time so lived off out of date kimchi and morbier cheese.) She was fat, I was fat, we all knew the deal but the whole thing wasn't targeted to my situation at all. It didn't take into account that I had been this weight for years, it didn't take into account that I did a physical job it just labelled me as a fattie and didn't treat me as an individual. That in itself is poor.

orange Yes, absolutely there are genetic factors and other illnesses that do make it more difficult to lose weight. But that’s not the case for most people.

A PP put it well when they said willpower is not the only thing. But it is a major component, especially in an environment filled with Deliveroos and 24h drive through. How come the UK has 24hr drive thru for Macdonalds yet Japan has 24h vending machines with rice balls?

Agree completely about the crappy, car centric exercise options which active lifestyles and travel extremely difficult. We have an excellent long, traffic free cycle path near us, but it’s the last mile and a half from the cycle path to our village which is on a narrow NSL limit road means it’s not useable for many journeys.