Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

I’m obese. Currently following the keto plan, and for me, removing the refined carbs out of my food (not just sugar but bread, pasta and rice) has been a revelation. It has stopped my cravings, and although it’s early days I have stuck to this plan for 8 weeks without falling off the wagon. I can’t think of one previous plan (and I have done them all - ww, sw, meal replacements etc) where I could say that.

My issues are partly genetic, I am shaped like my cousin, aunt and great grandma, all of whom have had weight issues and carried weight in the same way as me. I have PCOS. But mainly food has been an emotional crutch for me all my life.

I do compare junk food to a drug for me. I have binged on seriously ridiculous amounts of food when struggling emotionally. Then it sets me off into a spiral of self hatred, rage and despair and I feel so crap about myself I do it all again.

I can tell you the calorific value of pretty much any food. My knowledge of the diet industry is extensive. I have the absolute desire to lose weight, for health as well as for looks. But until removing sugar and carbs completely, I felt hungry and couldn’t control my cravings. It was horrific. I know how people talk about obese people, I didn’t want to be obese, but - especially when “on a diet “ I had cravings and obsessions like you can’t imagine, it would occupy most of my waking thoughts. I couldn’t just have a bit, I needed that fix that binging on junk food could give me.

I’ve felt out of control around food for all of my adult life. 8 weeks isn’t a long time to say I’m cured, but I do feel liberated. I hope it continues.

Rawlikesushi... Completely agree.
While obesity itself comes from consuming too much food, simple, the reasons people eat too much is indeed complex.
However it can't be blamed entirely on external factors such as cheap takeaway being too readily available.. Cus surely wed all be obese then?
The pp who said shift work made exercise difficult is good example, she stated she couldnt go to a class cus it was at 6am, yet if you look at threads asking "slim" people how they do it, so many people say things like I get up at 6am to run/exercise /go to gym.
The problem is we are told we are fat shaming if we point out the flaws in the "I am a victim of these external factors" but am echo chamber of "yes let's all wring our hands about obesity but not say anything about personal choices or responsibility" is really not going to help much

Mental health provision in this country is absolutely pathetic. I went from a size 12 to a size 20, (i have always been a comfort eater). This turned into a full on binge eating disorder when i developed ptsd after trauma. Added to that the side effects from the anti depressants I'm on and it's near enough impossible to lose weight. Not totally impossible, and I'm trying. But thank God i got some help from a private therapist because the waiting list to even be assessed by a psychologist was 6 months. Perhaps if there was more support for people who are obese linked to mental health then there wouldn't be so much obesity. I know a couple of fat people (like me) who say they are very happy being fat but i do think they're in the minority.

I think society has failed at addressing obesity because it is always thin people telling us fatties what the reasons are

I agree with this. I was once one of those thin people and I used to give such good advice - after all I was a public health consultant so I knew what caused people to put on weight and, of course, I knew what to do about it....

Then two things happened - I got fat and I worked in a project to really understand why some people were obese.

I don't know why I out on weight. I don't like cake or chocolate, don't have a sweet tooth and, then I was pretty active. The only thing different was that I was had got married and was actually eating rather than skipping meals. Then I realised that my body shape (and my sister was about three years ahead of me on this one!) was the same as my mother, sister, gramdmother and all my Nigerian relatives.

I've never completely lost that weight and now, if I bothered to weigh and work it all out, I'd probably be obese. Like many people I've eaten too much and drunk too much during lockdown and my current contract requires me to sit on my ever expanding arse for 14 hours a day talking to very sick people.

When the world returns to normal I'll move around more, eat less and drink less - but my weight is not going to chance much. I'm 50. This is my body shape and the best approach for me is to come to terms with it and accept it and love the body I have. That means dressing well, looking after myself with lovely food and - most importantly - stop being affected and upset by the fat shaming on here and in society as a whole.

Thank you for starting a nuanced conversation OP.
I have used food to help me level out my moods/ bring me up/ calm me down all my life.
I’ve been anorexic and bulimic (exercise after every meal) done Keto until it messed up my guts and now I’m completely fatigued from using up my brain power on controlling my weight and completely gave up all rules last year. I’m heavier than I’ve ever been at 12 stone but I have burnt my self out from 20+ years of spending every waking minute thinking about it.
I’ve realised there’s a huge link to my hormones, they’ve always been all over the place and it’s getting worse.
I have started taking the anti anxiety/ depression medication Sertraline recently for bad 10 day pmt and it’s really silenced my body image issues and taken the emotion out of food for me.
It’s always so complicated and I don’t think the fat phobic comments are helpful in the slightest. Shame can only take people so far.

I think one of the biggest missed opportunities is the early finish time of most state secondary schools. In my town they all finish at or before 3pm. I've worked in state and private. At the private school I'm at, basic finish time is 4 30, most kids stay til 5./6 for additional sport or other activities. They have swimming or games 4/5 days for 90 mins, hence the later school finish time. We have less than 10 overweight (as in fat rather than puberty issues / rugby player big) students. It would take a complete rethink of the secondary curriculum, teachers contracts, etc but it could be done over time. My kids are in prep and also have a later finish and a good chunk of sport every day. It's normal for them. Obesity is a complex issue and people gain weight later in life for all sorts of reasons but a base line of bring fit and healthy in childhood has to be a good start.

@amysteryforsaturday

I’m 29, I’m 21 stone .

I gained weight age 6 when my dad finally left and we were taken out of foster care and I became my mentally ill mums full time carer . She would tell me about how she was raped and stuff and I couldn’t cope with what I was hearing so I ate : and ate; and ate ....

I was fat shamed repeatedly as a child and adult and laughed at openly by family . As a teen I had food and drink thrown at me at school - Diet Coke poured down my hair, milkshake, potato; flour and once memorably squirty cream was sprayed all over me . My gran used to hide food from me - if I came to visit her she’d make all sorts of comments . Told me I was it was just as well when diagnosed PCOS as I’d ruin any child’s life I gave birth to and no sensible man would want to marry me anyway .

None of that make me skinny .

Instead I ended up a very depressed, angry, hurting adult who still eats to bury my feelings ... it’s like an addiction - I’ve been addicted to codeine and hell I’ve beaten that but food is much harder, you can’t not eat like I can just not take codeine !

I’ve lost weight twice . Both times it was because I felt safe, in control, loved, supported and I had someone to turn to for consistency, someone I could always rely on to be there and to be ‘safe ‘ iyswim .

I’m - very slowly - learning to love myself and to realise I have wants, needs, aspirations and qualities like anyone else but I’m nearly thirty .

I genuinely think if I’d been supported back when I was so small I’d not have gained weight .

I don’t think being 21 stone comes simply from not eating and not moving, there’s so much more behind it ... But if you ask NHS for help it’s just my GP ringing and basically saying she’s not interested . I’ve finally, finally got a good counsellor who’s trying to help me, but again - I’m 29, it shouldn’t take so long !

There are other things that could have helped like if I’d been supported to exercise in a way that suited me - and the way we almost worship food isn’t helpful at all - but I genuinely think a lot of it comes back to mental health .

I'm so sorry all this happened to you.

You sound amazing. I wish you so much luck. ❤️

@Windchangeface

I say this objectively as someone who struggled with their weight significantly in their late teens/early 20’s so does understand.

God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have

Blueberries are expensive In the same way bigger/fancier Easter eggs are expensive.
A medium/small Cadbury egg 75p.
A banana is roughly 12p.
Apples are 4 for £1 or 30 something pence each. Rice cakes are less than £1 for a huge pack and so are yoghurts.

I could make you a list of easy snacks teens could grab for under £1 but they wouldn’t want those, they want Easter eggs because let’s face it they are nicer and fun.

This is partly the fault of society/advertising yes, but also the fault of a lack of home education and an abysmal U.K. attitude.
We binge!
We binge food and alcohol as a culture in a way that (most of) Europe don’t.
It’s such a different attitude and a big part of that IS OUR OWN FAULT! You can say ‘why do people always start having a go on threads about weight?’ but that’s Just another way of phrasing ‘why can’t we have a thread where everyone just agrees with and feels sorry for each other as victims of society?’ And the answer is...that’s not how MN works.
Although I do agree comments should be objective and respectful.

In fairness, I’ve maintained a BMI of no higher than 22 for over 5 years now (having lost nearly 6 stone) and I’d happily munch down one of those 75p Easter eggs in one go, so would DH who is also slim. Eating a full Easter egg doesn’t make you over weight, choices like eating a full Easter egg every day and not exercising make you overweight. I think weight/smoking get less sympathy than other substance addictions because they’re much much more common!

I couldn't agree with you more. At some point people need to take ownership of their choices.

Nothing will change until people accept responsibility rather than pointing the finger at various issues in society.

It's easy to see and understand all of the contributing reasons as to why someone becomes obese, but that doesn't change the fact that ultimately it is the individual that needs to make good choices.

I think for me it was having'over weight ' printed all over my maternity notes which prompted me to get rid of the choc and bread I was gorging on.we don't have takeaways so it was too much sugar / carbs for me. I have a once a week choc treat now . It's not great but at least it's not a daily habit anymore.
Dd brought home FOUR Easter eggs from school last Friday. Most will be binned.
As a kid my diet was horrible- chips, unlimited fizzy drinks, chocolate and all that crap. Rubbish parenting played a part in my relationship with food but thankfully I finally feel like I've cracked that.

I entirely blame pizza and pasta. We are all eating a vast quantity of (boiled) pastry and bread most days. Living on Gregg's sausage rolls would be the equivalent

Completely insane post. Pasta every day - no good. Massive portions of pasta - no good. Eating an appropriate portion of pasta for your size, with a freshly made tomato sauce, chicken breast & green veg - perfect.

Unhealthy food isn't necessarily cheaper than healthy food but it's still too cheap. Why not tax the fuck out of high calorie foods like we do cigarettes? And the government just really needs to overhaul everything. Some of my musings:

-Dishes to be no more than a set number of calories, in restaurants or takeaways. And not cheaper because they are smaller portions, the same price as previous portions. This will also help with familiarising sensible portions.

-No more multipacks of crisps/chocolates/high calorie snacks. Individual, 1 person size portions only. And not cheap. Say £1.50 for a small bar of chocolate for example. Also really reinforces the idea that these items are a "treat" rather than an every day staple.

-Higher tax on cars and fuel. Make owning and running a car even more expensive than it already is. Tax relief if you or a family member has a disability that means travelling by car is a necessity, or if your job involves driving, or you can prove that walking/cycling/public transport to work or school etc are not viable options for you. And then you only get the tax cut for the miles that you absolutely need to travel. People are happy to just jump in the car to go everywhere, even very short (walkable) distances. It needs to be too expensive to even contemplate driving a journey that you could walk or cycle.

-Far more government subsidised sport. Cheaper gyms, swimming etc. Also sports equipment, especially bikes. And more cycle lanes/paths and footpaths, use some of the road space for that.

-P. E every day in school, and (as others have said) less competitive or team sports. Bring in an even bigger variety of exercise experiences for kids to help them find one or two that they love.

I'm well aware that most of my ideas are simplistic, unrealistic and riddled with logistical problems 😂 but they are the things that would make me a healthy weight 🤷‍♀️

I think education is so important. I have had a weight problem all my life and I honestly didn’t start thinking properly about the nutritional aspects of food until I was 18 and went to university where all the food shop was my (and my housemate’s) responsibility. I managed to lose a lot of weight back then but have yo-yoed all my adult life.

Interesting comments about Singapore. I found Penang in Malaysia very much the same. An abundance of street food - you pick a healthy and cheap dish from a few different stalls and sit and eat with the rest of the community.

Beijing also comes to mind weirdly - not with food so much but with exercise. Beijing screams ‘wealth’ when you’re there and in the thick of it. Massive skyscrapers, extremely cosmopolitan and yet the sense of community really stood out. There were huge groups of people exercising together in parks - people of all ages doing fitness classes together. Everyone was cycling everywhere. Even in the evenings, people weren’t shut up in their apartments watching TV... they were all gathered together in the narrow alley ways between their apartment buildings - children too - playing games and socialising with each other. They are far less sedentary than I think we are here.
Culture has a lot to answer for too.

As someone with Binge Eating Disorder and who is overweight, one of the biggest challenges is that you can't never eat again in the same way that a human can go through life without alcohol/cigarettes/gambling. So you are constantly challenged with it.

DH is French and the supermarkets sell less processed food than we do.

For the love of good!
What is an appropriate portion of pastry for your size?
And all the tantalising exoticism around your fancy meal! Chicken, fine. Green beans fine. Tomato 'gravy' cooked in oil. Not so good.
Appropriate portion of boiled pastry with oil on top. (Olive or otherwise is still same fat content as any other fat inc cooking oil or butter.) Ridiculous.

The problem with threads like this is you will have a disproportionate number of people replying who have had very traumatic experiences or have an eating disorder & need professional psychological help with their relationship with food. That is sad, but clearly not why the majority of UK adults are now overweight- most people simply eat more calories than they need. With shops & advertising constantly pushing high calorie foods it's not surprising. We are living with an excess of easily available, calorie dense food. It just wasn't like this 20 years ago - there were fewer cafes, takeaways, mini supermarkets and less pre-prepared food options. At a population level the government needs to treat obesity like smoking - tax the high calorie foods, ban advertising, tax food delivery companies & subsidise healthy options. There is a recent study showing a clear correlation between population levels of obesity & covid deaths. Fat shaming is bad, but body positivity is frankly just as bad. It should not be 'positive' to be obese for the same reason it's not good to smoke. Gaining weight is very easy, losing it is hard. We need to act at a population level which means government action.

I don't think we should think of the 'meat and two veg' days as something to aspire to. Both my parents grew up in the 50's. There may not have been access to crisps and chocolate like we have, but they both spoke of lard sandwiches, sugar sandwiches, putting honey on the baby's dummy to get her to sleep. They were both thin but had terrible teeth! And never saw a green vegetable than wasn't cabbage.

I’m really interested in this subject. I think culture plays a huge part in the obesity crisis.

I used to be very fat but I’m not any more. I lost a significant amount of weight (around 9 stone, possibly more) through healthy eating and exercise. It was entirely by my own design...no clubs, no diets, no fads, no diet products, no celebrity endorsement, no regime to follow, no counting calories, points or ‘syns’, no weekly weigh-in...just making good nutritional choices and being active.
I have successfully maintained my current healthy weight and lifestyle for around four years now. For me it’s a case of eating less than I burn and keeping the junk/convenience/fast/treat food to an absolute minimum. I also take regular exercise. The switch flipped and I’ve never looked back.

I know what it’s like to be morbidly obese. I also know what it is to head on tackle it the old fashioned way.
Ask me anything you like. I’ll share my experience with you if you want to hear it. I won’t drone on if no one gives a shit but I’d like to help anyone struggling with this issue if I can.

I used to commute into the centre of London every day. First walking to kids to school, then switching between different types of transport up and down stairs and then walking to the office. I hadn't realised until lockdown and WFH how much inadvertent exercise my commute used to provide me with. Not having opportunity for this inadvertent exercise, because of driving everywhere or staying at home, will also contribute to obesity levels.

I agree with the sentiment OP. The bit I find difficult is that even stating facts such as "being overweight causes health problems" is denied vociferously by people who proclaim that they are fat and healthy/happy; or that their BMI/GP proclaims them fat but they're a size 16 so can't possibly be.

I don't judge people for being fat. I do judge people who deny that obesity is a major health problem for most countries.

Yes, I agree that the ease of eating on the go is a relatively new thing.. Coffee and a muffin mid afternoon, could be 600 cals wolfed down in ten mins. Coffee with syrups, whipped cream, caramel sauce.. Basically a dessert in a cup. Even a basic, part of a multipack, croissants or pain au chocalat is about 300 and won't fill you up for breakfast but it's quick, and at about £1.50 for 4 or 8 very cheap, and lets face it, nice. When I'm in the right frame of mind, I know I can poach an egg in the time it takes to brew tea but when I'm not, it feels like a faff.
There are some awful stories on here of very complex reasons for obesity but for a high % of the overweight or obese population it really does come down to choices and priorities. I know I can lose weight when I bother to find the time to meal plan, shop appropriately, fit my needs in as well as those of my kids and my job, but mostly, I can't be botheredand that is my 'fault' and is in my control. I know that is not the case for everyone but I think we do normalise it, do conspire in it.. Biscuits or cakes for the office for every 'event' etc.

Is eating for comfort know it’s not good for you and going to make you gain weight and therefore cause other health issues the opposite of anorexia?

Both are doing something to harm your body but you do it even though you know it’s not good for you.

Most people eat pasta, pizza or stir fry daily. Italian pizza or pasta. Chinese food is all fried. Indian food is like a highly calorific creamy stew with lots of bread and rice.
Pasta is boiled pastry.
Pizza is an enormous helping of cheese on toast with some tomato sauce to make it seem healthier.

This is nuts. Since when were there all Indian curries creamy? You’re doing pasta wrong if you think it’s the same as pastry. Aren’t stir fries usually heavy on the veg?

As with everything, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to cook things. There’s also nothing wrong with an occasional unhealthy meal in the context of a generally good diet.

A fast food place at every conjecture, with a drive thru no less...and operating 24 hours some of them. Like it’s an essential service?
That’s mad...but it completely normalises eating crap on the go at all hours of the day. Who ever wished for McDonalds to be in close proximity around the clock? Why are they there?

Yes the reasons behind obesity is complex but my weight gain has been due to lack of movement (wfh) and eating too much crap. I am trying to lose weight now and its really hard. I never thought it would be so difficult. I mean I'm doing it, but I just want cake!