If you're still sticking to ALL the rules/guidance - why?

[RaspberryCoulis]

Will start by saying I am not sticking to the covid rules any more. Obviously I can't go places which aren't open. But we have had people in the house, kids are going out with friends probably in larger numbers than are permitted, we're crossing local authority boundaries which is supposedly illegal in Scotland. Why? Because we've been in lockdown for a year, cases here are very low, and some things are more important than Covid.

But on every thread there are people claiming that they are sticking rigidly to every single rule and guideline, never breaking ANY rule. They would probably say I was a selfish covid-denier who was hellbent on murdering their granny.

So if you're sticking to all the guidelines and rules, without fail - why? People who are clinically extremely vulnerable (officially) I can understand in part if they're not vaccinated. But the rest of you? Is it because you're scared of Covid, or scared of your neighbours, or scared of breaking the law by mistake?

We stick to rules - we had family die of Covid, viscerally scared of Covid, also of curtain twitching neighbours and my husband's employer has threatened consequences.

Also, isolation isn't causing huge distress to us. Our elderly families are looked after by those living closer to them, but I don't think we'll hold out till May before we see them.

If anyone was in distress and needed more help than chat, I'd have dropped everything and head over there. It just hasn't happened so far.

@MarshaBradyo

Kellehi how much is that used as the basis for the approach in U.K.? And many other countries

I don't care, really.

Asymptomatic is asymptomatic, and if the CDC journal published the paper, that's good enough for me.

It wouldn't be the first time the UK government ignores 'science' that is inconvenient to them whilst dealing with Covid-19 in a politically expedient way, and I imagine the same is true for other countries too

So don’t tell me the nation hasn’t been compliant. It’s gone over and beyond.

If you look at any of my posts you’ll see that I state compliance has been high.

Where I depart is people advocating rule breaking.

It wouldn't be the first time the UK government ignores 'science' that is inconvenient to them whilst dealing with Covid-19 in a politically expedient way, and I imagine the same is true for other countries too

You’re crazy if you think this is the politically expedient way.

You’ve found one study that supports your position.

Fortunately scientific process is more thorough than that.

I've been dying to drive 30mins to my local beach for a walk for months now, but I haven't done this because I'm not selfish and self entitled. I'm sticking to the rules because I care about the greater good, I care about vulnerable people and more importantly, I'm doing my bit so the world can go back to normal quicker!

Your attitude is shameful and selfish. I hope you get fined.

Because I'm generally someone who tries to make sure their own actions won't detriment others directly. Ie. Try not to be a dick.

Much like I manage to not drive my car the wrong way up a one way street. I know theoretically it might be quicker but realistically you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid to do it on purpose.

@greenfrogs1 how could driving to a local beach for a walk possibly be a risk to others?

If you're still sticking to ALL the rules/guidance - why?

Because I'm a decent person and it's the right thing to do. There might be some circumstances where breaking the rules is essential to avoid something worse happening, but I haven't found myself in any of those circumstances.

Next question?

Simple as that really. It hasn't required proactive effort - just don't go out, don't meet people, it's pretty simple. I don't understand how anyone can't comply with this - you don't have to do anything.

Christ, what a dense reply.

It may be physically easy, yes, but what about mentally?

Asymptomatic is asymptomatic, and if the CDC journal published the paper, that's good enough for me

Yeah, that’s not how science works.

When the British Medical Journal published the Wakefield MMR paper, would that have been good enough for you?

You publish to open your work to challenge. A science paper isn’t a statement of fact.

[quote WouldBeGood]@greenfrogs1 how could driving to a local beach for a walk possibly be a risk to others?[/quote]
Are u actually serious? You are totally missing the point.

If the government said 'everyone can drive places for a walk' then the beaches would be flooded with people, different variants from various locations would transition into new towns. It HAS to be one rule for all, otherwise there would be carnage.

People like OP (and you by the sounds of it) can only enjoy a SAFE walk at the beach (or wherever) BECAUSE THE REST OF US ARE FOLLOWING THE RULES. If nobody was following the rules how would OP feel then? If we ALL had the mindset of 'it's fine at the beach'? If it was packed and impossible to remain socially distanced? If we were all touching the handle of the public toilets? If I was walking a few feet behind OP and having a cough?

I refuse to break the rules because I understand the bigger picture and I am not 'me me me'. If my fellow citizens are following the rules then I will do the same. The majority of people think OP is selfish and I hope OP feels the weight of that.

@greenfrogs1 I really think you need to have a look at how the virus actually spreads. No outbreaks from the VE Day thing, or crowded beaches, despite the dire predictions. No longer evidence of the deadly impact of touching things.

Plus, there is now a vaccine.

Well as from today people in England can drive to go for a walk so your point @greenfrogs1 is no longer valid.

However it does serve to illustrate the absurd differences between England and Scotland where in scotland we might be able to leave our local area by 26th April, or we might not.

I personally find it hard to follow rules religiously when they're so obviously tweaked for political reasons when there's no real difference in underlying case data.

@MarshaBradyo

It wouldn't be the first time the UK government ignores 'science' that is inconvenient to them whilst dealing with Covid-19 in a politically expedient way, and I imagine the same is true for other countries too

You’re crazy if you think this is the politically expedient way.

You’ve found one study that supports your position.

Fortunately scientific process is more thorough than that.

You have no idea 'what my position is'

You have posted ZERO studies that support your position - I presume that position is that not only is asymptomatic tramsmission a thing, it is not insignificant and in fact the dominant driver of the Covid-19 pandemic...

I'm sure you have read plenty of studies. In the interests of educating myself further I'd like to read them.

You have... er... you have read the studies, right? I mean they actually exist, and it's not just your opinion?

@bluebluezoo

Asymptomatic is asymptomatic, and if the CDC journal published the paper, that's good enough for me

Yeah, that’s not how science works.

When the British Medical Journal published the Wakefield MMR paper, would that have been good enough for you?

You publish to open your work to challenge. A science paper isn’t a statement of fact.

Yet you haven't challenged it, only engaged in whataboutery.

Kellehi I’ve read whatever has been linked to the graphs thread and is of significant interested. So I doubt you’ve stumbled on something that the U.K. and many other countries are blind to.

Also listened to experts speak and agreed with Whitty and Valance generally.

I’m fine with my level of engagement and what I’ve said about compliance.

You have no idea 'what my position is'

What is it then?

@AlfonsoTheTerrible

*wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/4/20-4576_article*

In this cluster of COVID-19 cases, little to no transmission occurred from asymptomatic case-patients. Presymptomatic transmission was more frequent than symptomatic transmission. The serial interval was short; very short intervals occurred.

That link is from the US and discusses Covid in the US, not the UK.

Well yes of course, how silly of me. The behaviour of Covid-19 in the US is totally different to the behaviour of Covid-19 in the UK, and whilst asymptomatic transmission in the US is shown to negligible, in the UK we just don't know. It's possible that it's out of control, maybe even the dominant cause of infections... Is that really your argument?

By the way, if you'd taken the time to read the paper, you will have seen that the research was actually done in Germany...

What's the word for someone who writes something off sight unseen because it doesn't fit with their worldview?

@MarshaBradyo

Kellehi I’ve read whatever has been linked to the graphs thread and is of significant interested. So I doubt you’ve stumbled on something that the U.K. and many other countries are blind to.

Also listened to experts speak and agreed with Whitty and Valance generally.

I’m fine with my level of engagement and what I’ve said about compliance.

You have no idea 'what my position is'

What is it then?

'Science' - obviously.

'I've listened to experts speak and I agree with them' www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Authority

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

The majority of people think OP is selfish and I hope OP feels the weight of that

Maybe on here they do - real life? Doubt it.

’Science' - obviously.

Your ‘science’ is no less biased. How do you find it, what sources, do you listen to people or just get aggressive.

Knowing all the extra stuff you do what approach do you think is the right one?

@MarshaBradyo

’Science' - obviously.

Your ‘science’ is no less biased. How do you find it, what sources, do you listen to people or just get aggressive.

Knowing all the extra stuff you do what approach do you think is the right one?

I am happy to accept that the position occupied by 'Science' changes over time, in the same way that we no longer accept that the Earth is flat, or the centre of the universe, or that Thalidomide was a wonder drug.

All this time we have government scientists using 'Science', explaining Covid as a viral disease totally unlike any other viral disease in that the dominant means of transmission is asmptomatic, and as such, you 'must stay at home'

However, you never get to see any of these papers. The 'asymptomatic transmission theory is probably based on the now discredited RKI (Robert Koch Institute) investigation of how Covid first got started in Germany with the index patient on a business trip from Wuhan. It was thought that she was asymptomatic throughout her whole trip, but when interviewed later it was revealed that she was 'feeling a bit ropey and taking fever suppressing medication on the flight there, throughout the trip and on the way home'. That is paraphrasing of course, as no Chinese person would use the expression 'a bit ropey'. However, their paper didn't mention that, it just went on to say that she was ill after she returned to China. Not exactly meeting the definition of 'asymptomatic' as understood by the man on the street, no?

Then Covid exploded around the world and governments were looking for 'Science' to back up their reasoning for applying repressive measures and used the RKI paper, and here we are. Asymptomatic transmission of Covid is officially a 'thing'.

And of course given all the 'scientists' who are more educated than you or I will ever be who have chimed in with papers like I have provided you with will continue to be ignored for some time to come, because it counters the prevailing government scientific viewpoint. Maybe it will all come out in the wash sooner or later, who knows!

I'd have a look for that RKI paper, if I were you, and the scientific discussions that were going on that disputed the findings, but it was last year since I saw it and don't have the links anymore...

How about because we want things to open? And because we don't want to be the people causing kids to miss yet more school, businesses to lose yet more money, people to miss yet more non-covid medical treatment, etc etc?

Yes, some things are more important than covid. And selfish and cocky people like you are taking them away from others.

As regards asymptomatic transmission, some reports of the findings of that study are misleading:

factcheck.afp.com/article-headline-misleads-study-covid-19-asymptomatic-transmission

We don't yet really know how much asymptomatic transmission occurs. Studies are still being done. It's likely that it's less common than symptomatic transmission, because the asymptomatic have a lower viral load; but it's very unlikely that it's zero. In any case: there is no doubt that PREsymptomatic transmission is a very significant danger, and since the incubation period for Covid is typically about 5 days and can be up to 10 days and occasionally longer, this means that people who are not currently experiencing symptoms can certainly transmit the virus.